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Post by Signal on Jan 19, 2005 23:59:16 GMT -5
Here's an example output i just recently made into account from the idea i have.
Real Dodge Cost settings...
Personal Trooper Pilot - Minimum DC is 5
Sei Senshi Pilot - Minimum DC is 3
Valkyrie Pilot - Minimum DC is 3
Psychodriver - Minimum DC is 5
Newtype - Minimum DC is 4
Enhanced Human - Minimum DC is 4
Martian Successor - Minimum DC is 4
Heavy Metal - Minimum DC is 5
Tensai - Minimum DC is 5
Antibody - Minimum DC is 4
Coordinator - Minimum DC is 4
Ninja Senshi - Minimum DC is 4
Now for the Dodge pool Settings...
All other classes have the same amount of Dodge pool except RR's have an added bonus to their DC pool.
Personal Trooper Pilot - Max Dodge Pool +10
Sei Senshi Pilot - Max Dodge Pool +20
Valkyrie Pilot - Max Dodge Pool +20
Psychodriver - Max Dodge Pool +10
Newtype - Max Dodge Pool +15
Enhanced Human - Max Dodge Pool +15
Martian Successor - Max Dodge Pool +15
Heavy Metal - Max Dodge Pool +10
Tensai - Max Dodge Pool +10
Antibody - Max Dodge Pool +15
Coordinator - Max Dodge Pool +15
Ninja Senshi - Max Dodge Pool +15
Dodge Pool and Weapons pool are equal to the amount of PC's both you are stipened with... for example a 100 PC match means you have both 100 DC pool and 50 Weapons pool(like PC's but half to prevent overspamming) but this can be changed via the stipulations.(on a 200 PC match that would be 200 DC pool and 100 Weapons Pool consecutively).
The Weapons Pool acts as PC's for PC based weapons or other kinds of weapons that consume PC's. Instead in this way we seperate them from the Dodge pool for other uses as much as other than weapons.
Another thing that came to me is the use of "Fuel" which an item that recovers your DC pool similar to the Propellant Tanks except they recover only a few ounces of DC not complete recovery. but there will likely items like Fuel S/Hi Fuel/Full Fuel etc... whatever you want to call it.
To add to this are DC pool boosting items such as Mega Booster(which exists in the SRW too), Booster, High Power Booster etc.... whatever you want to name it.
This way you can think BOTH ways as you want to Tank or Dodge or do both ways at the same time.
Oh and btw considering the Weapons pool there should be a kind of reloader that at least recovers partial amount of the Weapons Pool.
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Post by Umbaglo on Jan 20, 2005 0:10:18 GMT -5
Signal, I really do not think that would really work at all. Maybe you should look at what my proposal was, and what everyone else has been discussing.
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Post by RurouninMao on Jan 20, 2005 10:20:33 GMT -5
Mao, making HP increasable makes fights longer then they are now. If the dodging pool is going to be equatable to HP, then there has to be ways to increase the size of the pool. Or to remove all the +HP items. But look at it this way, if you face a tanker, you will probably be bringing a status weapon of one sort or another. In which case it doesnt matter how many HP you got if you gonna get blasted with a Destroy. While having a dodger with a rather large dodge reasource be ipossible to kill before he kills you with out the aid of an X weapon, that is if we leave the X weapon alone at this point. Since the dynamic classes have been rebalanced, most of the other class cant really tank as well, especially against a well prepared opponent. Unlike a dodger with a replenishable dodge resource, which can arm itself so to keep his minimum Dc to its lowest. Im not really totally against increasing the dodge pool, but i kind of agree with what tavish said and suggested, some kind of test is in order and if we really want it to be increasable, then might as well make it UP base.
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Post by WesleyGibson on Jan 20, 2005 11:52:58 GMT -5
That doesn't even make sense. Pilot classes are impossible to predict, you never know what you might end up facing, and with the variety of items that revolve around tanking, unit is no way to predict what class you're up against (Unless the opposing unit is something like a getter or mazinger, which carry special defenses against the tactics you named, screwing an RR even worse). Shall I just never use one of my RR pilots out of a unit that comes with a status weapon to be sure I'm not crushed by someone going SR? That somehow doesn't sound like the most balanced solution to me. Maybe instead of doing that we could try and put the classes on equal footing by having dodge resources actually be equivalent in usefulness to HP, Armor, Barriers, Non-Armor HP additives (like A up SC), and everything else that makes fights go longer in favor of tanking.
The items are skewed in favor of tanking (Orihalconium > dual tesla drive), the seshin are in favor of tanking (1 iron wall saves me from (X) spam, casting concentrate means I'm still dead basically) I can't see how you could possibly think letting fights go longer because of dodging is a bad idea, or that the fact an RR can occasionally ward off a tanker using status is any reasonable justification for not changing this.
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Post by Umbaglo on Jan 20, 2005 12:56:19 GMT -5
How do you know what your opponent is going to use until you deploy? Sure my opponent may be in what may be viewed as a tanking unit, but that doesn't mean that he won't go equipped for dodging instead.
Your statement really doesn't have any backing, because you totally ignore the opposite. Big status spam is much less common then massive multihits. And how is hulking out your HP and DR different then hulking out your dodge pool and DC? Why is it unfair to let a person dodge more when it's A-Ok to let you tank more? I don't see your logic.
It would not be fair at all to make the dodging pool non-increasable if HP can be increased as well. A dodger, no matter what, pays a minimum of 5 PCs to avoid a single attack, while the tanker can pay 1 or even 0 HP, at no other cost as well, if equipped right.
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Post by Aslan Cross on Jan 20, 2005 19:01:55 GMT -5
While the dynamic classes have been nerfed considerably, I still think that tanking continues to be very much superior to dodging.
I think having a fixed dodge pool is a good idea, and as it is I have nothing to add to the proposal. Tavish is right in that we should test this and see how it works before we start talking about items, although it makes sense to see those added later.
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Post by Frost Winterheim [In Suit] on Jan 21, 2005 0:49:27 GMT -5
Let's test fixed dodging first, like what Aslan said. That's the best way for us to have some sory of empirical data to base further discussion on.
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Post by RurouninMao on Jan 21, 2005 9:33:39 GMT -5
Hey thats what i believe in, i would still say a dodger with a replenishable source of dodge will outlast a tanker with replenishable HP. That is to say if we go through with trying to fix X weapons. Also how do we get damage reduce to 0 without cost? When last i heard damage reduction cannot go lower than 1. With tankers like dynamic as they are 1 damage is good enough if he gets pelted with it continuously, and we he does regen its HP, he will lose probably half his tanking effectivenes (in case of dynamics). Please note that you people are also dsicussign about seishin that replenish dodge pool as well as item replenishing dodge pool. Lets say you have a dodge with a Dp of 100, if we theoretically have an item or a Seishin that replenish full DP, then you will probably facing a dodger with a possible 60 dodges. In low tier mid tier fight the max i see of X weapons would it 15 to 20 times for non PC X weapons that is to say.
Also yes you are right that you cant really say what yo would be facing, but think of it this way, if you got 2 dodgers facing eahc other with large DP and with a right amount of replenishable then how long do you think the fight would be, you people who are here like 16 or so hours a day would not really mind it since you would post like hell in a day but what about us who are only able to go online at certain times? I for one do not want a 2 man match going longer than king of the hill.
Excuse me if i sound harsh or any of my reasoning dont really sound right, but please think of the global affect of the changes you try to suggest. I for one really do like this idea, and replenishing Dodge pool isnt really that bad but, if you going to put in a way for DP can be Increased permanently, i would like it to have some kind of limit.
And lastly i concur with both Aslan and Frost, testing would be necessary for this
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Post by Umbaglo on Jan 21, 2005 10:48:08 GMT -5
Free barriers, Mao. And I meant normal multihits, not (X) weapons. There's so many x2 and x3 attacks out there.
And what about a fight between tankers? That'll take just as long as a match between dodgers. Hell, since damage can be reduced to less then the minimum DC, I think it would actually take LONGER. Try setting some Mazins against each other in units of their element, and see how long it takes the match to finish. Mecha and I had one that took 10 pages, and he wasn't even in a tanking unit.
Of course there'd be a limit to the size of the pool if it was UP boosted. Why wouldn't there be? But that's not what I'm saying it should be. There isn't a limit to how much your HP can be boosted up, other then the number of IS you have and the fight stips. The dodging pool should be similarly boosted, by using items. This would mean that there'd be an Orihalconium equivalent for the pool, to match the Chogokin equivalent for dodging we already have.
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Post by Signal on Jan 21, 2005 18:19:59 GMT -5
This is just a proof that the SC board game takes time, its something sometimes can't be finished quickly unless both of you are in a hurry or something. As much as this is just take your time in doing your turns since we are not an active-play online RPG(well unless there are some future plans hmmm...).
Seeing how we got lots of comments and resuggestions and other ideas, lets just simply test them all out first before making a compilation for the final judging.
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Post by Aslan Cross on Jan 22, 2005 7:48:55 GMT -5
I also think that fights taking longer isn't as big issue as game balance. I'd gladly let fights take longer to finish as long as the fight is fair. Having a few turns of pointless agony isn't exactly enjoyable.
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Post by Umbaglo on Jan 26, 2005 8:49:12 GMT -5
Ok, here's about how we'll work things. I'll need about 6 people who are dedicated towards trying this out, not just having another fight. This won't go anywhere unless people are serious about testing it. Of the 6 people, it is preferable that 3 be inclined towards dodging, and 3 inclined towards tanking.
For the matches, the units to be used will be determined by me. The only variables will be the dodge pool size and the class; all players will be on even footing otherwise, to make the results as clear as possible. Items will be limited to only low-tier perishables, including an item to replenish the dodge pool.
Players will have their pool size determined by me after giving what class they intend to use. Also, players may opt to switch out one spell for one of the following:
Stamina
Effect:[/color] User recovers 1/3 max Dodge
Statistics: SP Cost: 30 SP Alternate Name: N/A
Greater Stamina
Effect:[/color] User recovers all Dodge
Statistics: SP Cost: 60 SP Alternate Name: N/A
Players for this should be ready and able to finish their match quickly; I, for one, don't want to see this drag out so long that an alternate solution is found and implimented before the tests are done (*cough*bunshin*hack*). There will be 3 matches. One with a dodger against a tanker, one with 2 dodgers, and one with 2 tankers.
That's everything. Any questions?
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Post by RurouninMao on Jan 26, 2005 9:04:40 GMT -5
Im in, that is if you dont mind. Gonna be using my EH class
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Post by Trigger on Jan 26, 2005 9:19:32 GMT -5
If there's Room, I'd Like to Jump in with my Heavy Metal Class
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Post by Yanbetari on Jan 26, 2005 9:36:59 GMT -5
I'd be willing to help, but I have something to bring up first. Stamina and Greater Stamina are probably too powerful for the cost, especially at low ranks.
Take for comparison Flash. That's one dodge for 15 SP, and a limited one at that. It only works on the first attack, and DA negates it. Then take Stamina. For 20 SP, you get 1/3 of your dodge pool back. Now, assume that for a dynamic pilot their dodge pool and DC are such that they only get say 4 dodges out of a full pool. Meaning that with 3 castings of Stamina, they get 4 more dodges for 60 SP. Alternatively, they could cast Flash 4 times for 4 autododges at the same total of 60 SP, but then they have to worry about DA and Flash Buffering. Replace Stamina with Greater Stamina, and now you have 4 more dodges for 40 SP, 20 SP more efficient than Flash without the nasty sideffects. Of course, this is for a dynamic pilot, who dodges like a colony. Replace this with a Newtype, Valkyrie Pilot, or a Sei Senshi. These classes have substantially lower DC, and probably much better dodge pools as well. Now you're looking at something like 30 more dodges for 40 SP, over eleven times more efficient than Flash. If we had complaints about Flash whoring before, think what kind of complaints that'll bring about.
Of course, I realize that these costs and effects were based on the existing Perserverence and Greater Perserverence, but something to consider is that the average HP of a unit may only be around the range of 70-80 HP, where as dodge pools (assuming they're based somewhat on standard PC limits) could range from 100-200, with an average of about 150-160. A tank could effectively reduce attacks to 1 damage each, while a dodge is looking at a minimum of 5, but that would likely involve blocking, which costs your attack phase, while dodging does not. Also, damage boosts are a tad more prevalent and powerful than DC boosts.
Now, I know there are things like DC modifiers and the like, and maybe that'd help iron out the effects of Stamina/Greater Stamina a bit, but this is something to be aware of. That said, I would be willing to help in the testing process.
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