|
Post by Yanbetari on Nov 22, 2004 22:02:32 GMT -5
Well, for customizing Dressups, I can see two major flaws. 1 - Because these could potentially be available to anyone, if you customized one, would it have to be exactly the same as the original, or could something completely different evo into it? The first is severly limiting, to the point of just making the original another hangar unit, and the second is just silly. 2 - If you make a custom of a Dressup, and the Dressup gets modded later, is it still valid? Something found to be horribly broken on the old dressup might get phased out, but remain on the custom unit. Also, could newer version dressups evo to the old version custom, or would the old version become unobtainable?
However, on the subject of customizing customs, I could see it being possible, to an extent, depending on the level of the original base unit. For example: If you made an custom of say, Hi-Nu Gundam, that would be it, as it's an evo of a Hi-Tier 2nd stage unit already. But if you made a custom of something like a GM, making that custom customizable would be far more understandable, as we have other units in the Hangar that start Private or Corporal, and evo twice to something Lieutenant level.
In connection with that, I think the customization cost should be in some way proportional to the unit's cost, as should the expected level of the result. So a Zaku I custom would be relatively cheap, but also not too powerful. And an Astragun custom would be considerably stronger, but also exceedingly expensive.
|
|
|
Post by Ryune Zoldark on Nov 22, 2004 22:29:10 GMT -5
My 2 cents on this matter.
I personally like the Customization idea myself. A lot. But making personalized dressups are pushing it. As Imban said, the dressups are ALREADY tailored to what we want, they are already personalized to a point. That and it would be far easier to make broken combinations out of dressups if we can customize them... I can think of some...
|
|
|
Post by Umbaglo on Nov 22, 2004 22:45:11 GMT -5
The outcome being broken is not an issue here. All units have an equal ability to produce broken stats, not just dressups. Remember that the stats are not made by you, but by the mods in charge.
So please, try to keep that out of your points.
|
|
|
Post by Aslan Cross on Nov 23, 2004 4:50:56 GMT -5
The current idea between Tristan and I is that if you pay the customization fee for it, you get it immediately. If you don't pay to make the unit unique, other people can fight to evo their unit to yours. As far as I know, the main issue currently being debated upon is whether or not dressups should be able to be customized. Tristan seems to think it won't create results which are that broken (which it probably won't), but my opinion is that it's creating a personalization of an already personalized unit, since you already have almost everything you want on the dressup except for exact stats. As far as I can see, this is acceptable.
|
|
|
Post by Kyoryushin on Nov 23, 2004 6:38:05 GMT -5
How about unlike regular units, personalizing dress-up will only limited to boost in stats only, adding weapon found in the specific dress-up(ie you can only get weapons that are available to the gundam dress-up if you plan to sutomize it further) and disallowing the aquirement of special inherents found in other packages from said dress-up(i.e. If your chosen inherent is Seed, you can grab the Zero Sys of the Wing ineherent package)
|
|
|
Post by Rooster on Nov 23, 2004 8:25:37 GMT -5
Whee, I'm under the great category... and I would have a signature unit for my future dressups that would also Ecchi Combine with Cybuster. Juuuust like in Vandread. Several points: Firstly, Mao is the champion of communism, not Tristan. Try to remember this! Secondly, I had some contributions I came up with in chat... First: I like the idea of paying to make it unique, but I thought of another idea. You, the person who did the appraisal, get the unit as stated. However, the unit added to the hangar for everyone else is a "Mass Produced" variant, with slightly weaker stats by some simple formula (to reduce thinking requirements for the mods). Examples: 10% less HP or EN. 25% less ammo (for ammo heavy units), lose a useful inherent or gain a restrictive one, 10% less damage, 1 less IS. (Choose one or two and slap it on.) This way, Your Unique Unit, even if other people can get copies, is still a little stronger than the public one. And then, the hangar mods can prevent other people from cloning yours thorugh the expediant of saying 'You're an ass, stop trying to copy his.' Next idea: Make the appraisal fee fixed, but the purchase cost (the 1250 number) variable on the unit's value (and maybe to some degree how much is chaning). So if I wanted to add a Beam Spike to a Ball, it'd cost me some loose change out of my couch, but if Wesley wanted to add the OF inherent to his already rather insane Neo Granzon, he'd pay through the nose and both ears. The vague idea of twice it's purchase cost or the total converted evolution cost (as if you had bought every evo point and the customize fee comined)... or just four times the hangar resale cost on everything comes to mind. Third: Customizing dressups would be fun, and while not broken more than any other unit being customized, I agree that they are already, to a degree... customized already. This is, however, customization within the theme of their original series, really. Gundams don't don't sport Space Gren, Masouki don't have barriers, etc. However, this proposal allows us to modify units within the context of OURSELVES, our pilots' histories, and SRW. And isn't RP what it's all about, in the end? (Even for those of us who only 'RP' to the extent of doing fights.) Fourth: Customizing Chains. I find the idea silly, but acceptible to me. Perhaps there's a certain "time limit" during which your pilot is supposedly working out the cusomizations in character. (Say, you can only customize a another customized form after it's been out a month.) Just remember, a 'Customized Unit' isn't necessarily stronger, just more tweaked to that pilot. Although I could see a multi-evo-chained-mega-customized-unit getting more powerful by a signiifigant amount, the board mods are fully justified in slapping higher rank requirement tags and/or HT/BOSS tags on it if it hits that level of power, as appropriate.
|
|
|
Post by Umbaglo on Nov 23, 2004 9:50:00 GMT -5
The problem with just tossing HT and Boss around willy-nilly is that the 2 tags are vastly different in effect. Hi-Tier is just a denotation; it really doesn't mean anything except that this unit is just a bit stronger then would normally be for it's rank. For all intents and purposes, the Hi-Tier tag might as well be another rank above Lt.
Boss, on the other hand, is something completly different. Boss gains complete immunity to PARALYZE and takes 50% damage from D:L1. This is a massive step up. Boss is not just to denote a level of power. A unit doesn't get Boss just because it's stronger then the average unit; it gets it because it's, you know, a boss unit. I don't really think this is something that should be given by Personalizations.
|
|
|
Post by Seth Valentine on Nov 23, 2004 10:24:56 GMT -5
Well, one idea about the price that I can think of is:
If the hangar mods are deciding the stats and everything based on what the person is asking for, why don't they just choose an appraisal fee too?
For example, I ask for personalizations, and Tristan takes a look. What I want on it is a heavy change, and then he makes the change. He shows it to me, and then he says, in a rather old, creaky voice "You pay this much."
I.E. We pay however much the hangar mods find suitable.
|
|
|
Post by Tavish on Nov 23, 2004 12:05:52 GMT -5
First: I like the idea of paying to make it unique, but I thought of another idea. You, the person who did the appraisal, get the unit as stated. However, the unit added to the hangar for everyone else is a "Mass Produced" variant, with slightly weaker stats by some simple formula (to reduce thinking requirements for the mods). Examples: 10% less HP or EN. 25% less ammo (for ammo heavy units), lose a useful inherent or gain a restrictive one, 10% less damage, 1 less IS. (Choose one or two and slap it on.) This way, Your Unique Unit, even if other people can get copies, is still a little stronger than the public one. And then, the hangar mods can prevent other people from cloning yours thorugh the expediant of saying 'You're an ass, stop trying to copy his.' I don't like this, for the simple reason that I don't see a purpose behind making one copy of a particular mecha stronger than others, unless you're going to make it an all out different mecha. The Char's Customized Zaku in the SC has are intended to equate the stats that Char's Customized Zaku has in the games and shows. It's not Char's Customized Zaku -10%. Similarly, Heavyarms is Heavyarms. There's no real Trowa's Heavyarms variant, just the Custom version that is upgraded to after a while. Again, it has the stats it is intended to in its sources, not these stats -10%. And what about Neo Granzon? People can get that and it was a unique quality of Shuu's ability to channel Volkruss in the games. Do they get some watered down Neo Granzon if they acquire it in the SC? No, they get the Neo Granzon, although arguably some people have upgraded theirs more than others. I can accept the idea of truly unique, one of a kind mecha. That's a major staple of anime, and anime makes up half of the SC's sources, and is the original source of most of the other half of the SC's sources (SRW). But the idea of there being a single mecha and then a bunch of copies of it, having anything less than entirely separate stat blocks (see: Strike Gundam and Astrays), I find rather distasteful.
|
|
|
Post by Imban on Nov 23, 2004 13:06:23 GMT -5
Addressing Roo's points, since they seem to cover most everything.
First: The MP Variant thing is stupid bad. You have to remember that not all of the Personalized Units will even have that much of a statistic boost over their original form. Removing some stat like that might well make the resulting unit weaker than its original form. Bad.
Second: The cost to have the unit added will be determined by the Hangar mods, yes. It will be based on the power of your starting unit and the extent of customization, yes. General price guidelines should be posted so you can prepare to lose such and such amount of money.
Third: I'm starting to be less against dressup personalization, given Tristan's idea that you'd have to pay the unique fee. Still, personalizing a Masouki dressup would render you incapable of ever having one again, which is a small problem.
Kyoryushin, your idea basically amounts to paying ~2000 PCs for extra dressup points, so it's probably a no.
Fourth: Customization chains... perhaps. Only on your own personalized units, of course, and it'd have to be watched slightly more strictly... but maybe.
In any case, while a unit can (easily) move up the ranks as a result of personalization, even to Hi-Tier, they won't become Bosses or Final Bosses as the result of personalization. Those two tags grant actual benefits and are restricted to actual bosses/final bosses.
Hi-Tier is just a designation that this unit, while not a boss, is more powerful than most, and typically restricted to events where other broken units are invited.
|
|
|
Post by Kyoryushin on Nov 25, 2004 6:28:37 GMT -5
Well it was just a thought, but im still iadamant about cross series ability, like giving a gundam Mazin Power or anything Srish abilty. Just allow upgrades that is feasable and part of the unit's world is all im saying
|
|
|
Post by Umbaglo on Nov 25, 2004 10:27:10 GMT -5
The problem with that is that a lot of people are NOT making units that continue with the source's story. For example, I made my Freedom and Justice into Mazingers. Rayearth made the Masoukishins into Mashins. Tavish had Masouki frames.
There's no reason to limit people like that. If there's a valid justification, then the person should be allowed.
Also, I'm starting to be against the applicant getting a "free" copy of the unit in question when they pay the fees. I agree that the person should have first dibs at it, but in a lot of instances, you're probably paying less then the base unit itself costs to acquire. I think it should just be levt to evolution. Then other people can acquire it once you get your own.
|
|
|
Post by Arad Baranga on Nov 25, 2004 10:49:33 GMT -5
There's not a lot of abuse people can do with that anyway outside of Mazin Power + Barrier, but even then that's something that they could do with items regardless.
With minimum DC now, SR pilots can't make so much use of a big DC mod to an SR as they could before. And then with lower HP on most RR units, they also can't really get the most of their abilities in these suits anyway. A Getter Pilot in Strike Gundam might be kinda tough, but that same pilot in an MP Great Mazinger is tougher.
Maybe if we can get more examples of how it could be broked than Mazin Power/Spirit Dependency Link + Barrier/PSA (which isn't so broken and as stated previously is easy enough to do with items), I'd agree, but otherwise I think Umb's right.
I also think he's right about not automatically giving them to the person. If we keep it as an evo, then we know for sure it's a unit they're using and care about enough to use for so many fights too. All that we'd need to do is say that nobody can get it until that player gets his.
Of course, we could lower the submission cost a bit and then tack on a unit replacement cost to acquire the unit as well. Maybe say that the guy who submitted the unit can waive the replacement cost. That would be a place to meet in the middle I think.
|
|
|
Post by Berrik on Nov 25, 2004 12:39:55 GMT -5
I agree with not automatically giving the unit to someone.
|
|
|
Post by Kyoryushin on Nov 26, 2004 6:43:54 GMT -5
Yes you can do it with items...But if its inherent in a unit that means you got free IS that can be used to equipe stuff that can make you stronger. With my previous example, yes it can be achieved by equiping items but then your item space would be eaten by those item, unlike if they are inherent like the one made, you got 2 Item Space free to add say Targte sensors or the like. Beisde isnt it a general agreement that Tanking is always greater than dodging, with this set up you got yourself something that cant be killed by normal weapons
As for the aquisition, how maybe we leave it up tot he submitter, liek say if the idea was passed, the mod would ask him if he would like the unit be available for mass use. IF lets say The submitter agrees to it, maybe the mod can give him a large discount to the final price and if he doesnt agree and wants it to himself he would pay a higher sum than normal. Just a suggestion
And lastly, if the Mod find the submission alright then i cant really do anythign about it, i just ask for them to be a little more strict with it, just dont pass the thing cause it makes sense, gouge what the total effect of the ability would give to the unit and to the playing field. Cause we might end with lots of unit that cant be killed in conventional ways
|
|