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Post by Tilus on May 17, 2004 9:18:02 GMT -5
Well, first off, the SR pilots haven't been fully modded yet. They've only gotten half a mod.. which has left us Mazinger Pilots with a nerf rather than a modding. And, honestly, it's annoying playing as a half-modded class. >_<;; I personally believe that you should've waited until after you came up with a solution for alternate Mazinger and Grendizer pilot skills before you modded instead of leaving us hanging with a half finished mod..
Anyways, I have to disagree, Mao. The Yuusha class is indeed broken. The argument that Yuusha no Chikara is easy to avoid is baseless - I've seen Coordinators reach SEED with a VERY high success rate, and they're even easier to screw out of than Yuushas. Sure it's balanced against some of the less defensive and more nimble RR classes, but for other classes and the SR classes, Yuusha no Chikara completely and totally hoses them. No damage reduction and no barriers really, really, really hurts.. it's basically taking away the very thing SR classes need for survival.
And even with some of the less defensive classes, Yuusha no Chikara + any (X) will hose anybody, RR and SR pilot alike. Well, unless you're a Psychodriver, or have Bunshin, the latter of which many think is equally as abusable and really needs fixing pronto.
I honestly think Yuusha no Chikara needs to be completely retooled, or replaced with something different - it's completely imbalancing gameplay in the SC.
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Post by Kamui on May 17, 2004 9:56:02 GMT -5
can you guys change Tensai's DC? 20 is like Classless' DC. I know Tensai's current stats are ... ummm awesome (is it too much) but not literally good. can you lower it 15 or 16 below.
for VP can you reduce Lock-On charge time from 5 turns to 4 turns. I think some of you mention that you will lower the charge time.
this is just comments.
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Post by Ta-kun on May 17, 2004 10:17:09 GMT -5
Kamui> no and no.
Tensai is a class designed to use resources in a mech as much as it can, tensais are basicly the rich people in the SC, and the purpose of tensais is basicly... get money, or use motherships.
VP's Lock on was discussed quite a lot, the skill is basicly much more better than NT's pressure and similar skills, so to balance the charge time was set at 5.
tilus>
>_> can you check the tests for yuushas? I was in dagwon shadow, WITH BUNSHIN AND A (X) against a NT and a VP... not matter how, I was dead meat.
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Post by Tristan on May 17, 2004 17:01:23 GMT -5
I'd have to disagree there, Garrod.. Tensai are going through a short stick phase at the moment. The main problem is that every class as of late, is either extremely good at dodging, taking damage or offense; whereas lately.. Tensai have been suffering from inability do any of those three. (I'd like to point out there, that almost all Tensai in SRW were infact.. mecha pilots! Elzam, Ratouni, Shuu! Tensai were great dodgers for the most part. Plus, You need to win to get extra money.. and if you can't win..) Only Giren was really a ship tensai, and ships are used so little that really.. who's gonna wanna take a ship captain? (Kaiterra with his already taken subchar aside)
I really don't like complaining about my own class, but I've had trouble winning any of my fights lately because all it takes is a decent offense, ability to tank or x2 attack, and I'm hosed do to a complete inability to take/give decent damage. I can't dodge well, I can't hurt them well, and I can't tank well. I can make a (X) 9 damage/2 EN.. 1 EN, but that's easily g-wallable.
As for Yuusha, I think he's speaking more about 1 v 1 and the like; the main problem with Yuusha is that they have good offense, defense, dodge and they're able to bypass armor/barriers etc. This combination makes them more useful then some classes, like PT or Tensai, which lose out to both. (If the Yuusha DC mods went through, Yuusha would have a DC EQUAL to PT)
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Post by Naruto on May 17, 2004 18:25:50 GMT -5
"(If the Yuusha DC mods went through, Yuusha would have a DC EQUAL to PT)"
No, it would have been only a 1 or 2 DC mod. Which would have only been made them 16 or 17 DC at Lieutenant. Just trying to make the facts clear. :P
And as for One on One fight. Its been said many many time. SC was made for group fights not one on ones. X-x
But again as I said in another thread, Tensai could/should gain a DC mod. Somewhere at the level of a PT. #nosmileys
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Post by Aslan Cross on May 17, 2004 18:48:04 GMT -5
And as for One on One fight. Its been said many many time. SC was made for group fights not one on ones. X-x I couldn't agree more. The problem is, group fights take ages. The solution? SAMW. But then again, people either don't have money at all or aren't willing to invest in it. Oh well. Anyway, I guess Tensai could get a DC modification. I think the only Tensai in SRW who had problems dodging was Rai, and that was mostly due to his mech. Latouni and Elzam were among, if not the best RR pilots you had in OG, and they were both Tensai. As for Yuusha, I think we should remove its ability to pierce barriers and shields. (And Seishin too) Maybe we could also reduce the CC penalty it gives to 50% instead (Double is NASTY). I'm saying this because I'm getting Yuusha myself, and I don't want people to accuse me of being cheesy when using it >_<
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Post by Berrik on May 17, 2004 19:46:15 GMT -5
IMO Yuusha's piercing ability should also be nerfed so it only affects unit DR and not pilot DR.
Berrik
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Post by Trigger on May 17, 2004 20:11:40 GMT -5
Boy this Is a Really big Nerf for this Class XD XD XD I think the CC is Fine, But I Agree with the Pilot DR Maybe We Could bring back Enlist(Sp?) if we could Nerf it right. XD Waits for Boos from the Crowd, knowing that It'll never fly So How Much DC will the Tensais Get? 15? 10?
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Post by Mafty Navue Erin on May 17, 2004 22:06:34 GMT -5
Slightly OT: Frankly, I'm not in favor of a Yuusha DC mod from the current. At best, Yuusha should still maintain a distance towards the upper DC level of RR classes, since that's how it is in the game. The current DC is fine. It reflects how the Yuusha can dodge, but still not as well as a RR class.
It's better to concentrate on other aspects of Yuusha aside from its DC, if indeed a modification is needed.
Anyways.
I understand Tristan's point though. Despite the fact of SAMW in existence, people still do care about their main classes. The current trend of evolution of pilot classes in the SC can be described only as one direction: up. As time goes by, pilot classes always get upgraded, etc. Though there are some exceptions to this trend, I believe that the general flow can be best described by this.
Now, with pilot classes all going up in a general direction one way or another, it is inevitable that some of them will get left behind, which will trigger another complaints, then another round of discussion, and then implementation. Rinse and repeat with another class.
You see, this results in a (possibly) endless cycle of discussions and arguments that usually result to making things more complex that what they already are.
Instead of trying to argue certain pilot classes needing an upgrade or so, what we need to find is the right balance in which all the pilot classes have their own specialties, their own strengths and weaknesses, their own 'persona', so to speak.
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Post by Trigger on May 18, 2004 0:27:13 GMT -5
OT:
Do you Have an Idea how to Achive this Proper Balance? Becuase I Myself Have no Clue where to Start outside of Starting All the Classes From Scratch and I'm not of Big fan of that Solution. I've gotten too Far for something as Extreme as that.
How Quickly are we Goning to Get this Balance is Another Question. Are We Going to Do this All in one Sweep or over a Gradual trassion of a few weeks? Months?
It's Been Pretty Much Desided that 20 DC and 2EN/5PC CC is the Middle. Maybe That Could be a Start.
Or it Could be that I'm Ranting and Talking out of my Ass. You take your Pick.
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Post by Mafty Navue Erin on May 18, 2004 4:32:57 GMT -5
Um...that's not what I had implied.
I did not say that we wipe out all that we've worked for nor we start from scratch. I merely remarked that we take the grand scale of classes into perspective instead of specializing into each and every class that we receive a complaint for.
On another note, would you rather keep up the continuous cycle of upgrading each and every class until there come such a time that the SC will be filled with too much complex logic such that the learning curve would already be horribly steep and would most likely be a factor to discourage new people from joining in? Or maybe having too many complicated solutions just as to achieve simple goals?
Please do read my post carefully. Also, I do hope you change the tone in which you present your ideas next time. Suffice to say, it's not very pleasing to the receiver and is horribly ineffective persuading people to see your point.
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Post by Aslan Cross on May 18, 2004 5:31:59 GMT -5
Alright, I talked with some guys about Yuusha no Chikara, and here's what we came up with:
-Yuusha no Chikara will not affect pilot-based effects---that is, Pilot Abilities and Seishin. So SR pilots do not need to suffer, while RR classes can still deal with it through seishin.
-Yuusha no Chikara will affect mech-based abilities. Barriers, armor and other forms of inherent DR--Yuusha rip right through em.
-Yuusha will also lose than nasty double CC cost penalty for (M) weapons---instead, the penalty will be +50% and stackable with other CC penalties, such as those of Grapple Sensor.
Tensai has also been a favorite victim of Yuusha, and because barriers will still get crumpled, Tensai gets a DC of 15.
Do this modifications sound fair?
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Post by Kyoryushin on May 18, 2004 8:08:35 GMT -5
Hmm, so tensai's dodge is now 15? cool
As for Yuusha, that sounds fair enough, but maybe you can also remove the ability of capping defense initems(HM power wont get affected by this, since its a pilot ability and resist too, but Distortion block goes byebye)
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Post by Umbaglo on May 18, 2004 8:22:12 GMT -5
I think that considering the number of times a D-Block gets used, that it's ok to leave it in.
Otherwise it sounds good to me.
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Post by Daki on May 18, 2004 12:35:37 GMT -5
Well, its time once again for the opinions that everyone hates more than anyone elses, mine! ^^ 1. Tensais are geniuses, and its obvious with certain pilots like puru's and usso that it doesnt take olympic gold medalists to pilot a mecha, just skill and smarts which tensais are all about. Perhaps a lower dc would be good... but to be honest, I have no problem with keeping them the way they are. We might not be the heavanly kings of the earth, but we can romp fine and we get more out of it when we do win. 2. Yuushas arnt that overkill as is... their double countercut is a little nasty, but only when used with MX spam (thank god the grapple sensor is fixed now x.x), and the sc needs a barrier breaker pretty badly. Their stat boosts and dc arnt particularly sparkling, so if anything needs slight nerfing, take out that whopping super armour or somthing. Just imo of course, I havent fought one so some of you are better to judge this than myself. 3. I'm sure I'll get mods running down my throat like mad bee's at a bear, but maybe the best way to fix every problem in one shot is to redo every class at the same time. The place has been up a while, and a clean slate now and then cant hurt, ne? 4. I still love my PT idea Anywho, time for school.
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