|
Post by Arad Baranga on Jan 11, 2005 9:23:26 GMT -5
It does.
I still have reservations regarding this. I don't think that this is a good way to solve the issue because we all know that both the A-Up and the (X) can be just as deadly without each other. Having to make a specific rule for all interactions such as this leads to a rather unwieldy, Yu-Gi-Oh-ish set of rules where X always beats Y. Since the A-Up can be mighty killer with non-(X) weapons as well, especially those Vulcans/Twin Vulcans, any multihit or (V)/#/(R), etc., why not just lower the A-Up bonus to +5 universally and work on (X)s as a seperate issue?
|
|
|
Post by Tavish on Jan 11, 2005 17:06:55 GMT -5
I agree with Kaiterra. Creating convoluted rules is generally against the principles of good, fluid game design. I think this would apply to the SimChamber as well. That isn't to say complexity is a bad thing, but creating an excess of it is.
You also stand the possibility of weakening the classes in general. It will possibly become more desirable to use a Dynamic Pilot with Quasi-Psycommu, than actually pilot Nu Gundam with a Newtype. Or maybe I'm just thinking of the Qubeley. In any case, this is a bad precedent to set. A-Up Units are already pretty limited (they come after most all other bonuses, and are thus restricted in the bonus damage they deal). Going out to rework it, to make this specific exclusion, should only be after much thought and careful consideration.
Right now, we should probably look at the (X) as a whole, rather than point at any particular part of them as a problem. We have to account for a multitude of things, not just one. How many hits they do, how much damage they deal, how easy it is to use them, et cetera. Similarly, if we go out to mod the A-Up, we should look at the A-Up as a whole, and how it interacts with other things, not just any particular part of it.
Sure, (X) weapons might be broken now, but nerfing them into extinction, or layering on various unnecessary rules, instead of considering thoughtfully what can be done to improve them, in the easiest manner, will be more likely to cause issues down the line than problems. We look at some points now being raised, such as PCs and how they relate to dodging, and it's hard to just go back and fix it, so we're stuck with what we have. Do we want to do the same to (X) weapons?
|
|
|
Post by Mechalomaniac on Jan 11, 2005 18:14:24 GMT -5
After giving it some thought, I agree with Kait as well about lowering the bonus A-Ups give to 5 as well. Vulcans going from 3 to 8 isn't as much of a jump as from 3 to 13. It also helps with (V)'s, (X)'s, (R)'s and other multihits.
Obviously (X)'s as a whole need to be fixed, and there have been ideas, such as lower percentages, making the number of shots based off base EN and not current, and adding in multihit DCs. So, how about we start discussing those ideas?
|
|
|
Post by Aslan Cross on Jan 11, 2005 18:46:02 GMT -5
Good argument, I'll concede to that. Anyone else agree with nerfing A-Up bonuses to +5 period?
|
|
|
Post by Berrik on Jan 11, 2005 19:22:06 GMT -5
Only if they're changed so that they come before percentage bonuses. +5 REALLY sucks and makes them almost worthless for wasting an IS on.
|
|
|
Post by Umbaglo on Jan 11, 2005 19:39:36 GMT -5
That's not a very good idea, because even without a lot of multiplier abilities, you can still turn +5 into +50 pretty quickly. A Mazin, for example, would get +23 just on it's own abilities. Even a VP can boost the damage pretty high fairly fast.
|
|
|
Post by Berrik on Jan 11, 2005 21:24:25 GMT -5
Still, an item that just gives +5 to damage is pretty pointless on anything BUT an X weapon or a V. If you're going to penalize it, just penalize it as far as X weapons are concerned, otherwise one item we have will become useless and another will lose a lot of it's utility.
|
|
|
Post by Ryune Zoldark on Jan 11, 2005 21:32:51 GMT -5
I agree with Berrik here. The A-Up (C) and (SC) will no longer be worth their IS AND Price at a mere +5 damage.
Then again, even after nerfing the A-Ups people will just run for Hybrid Dual/Grapple/Multi to replace them anyway, which brings us back to point one. I`d rather nerf the (X)s themselves than the items.
|
|
|
Post by Arad Baranga on Jan 12, 2005 0:12:28 GMT -5
It doesn't make them useless. It just makes them better used with weaker units. Which is how the V-Ups in Advance were, pretty much, and these are just junior versions of those.
|
|
|
Post by CowboyJohnny on Jan 12, 2005 0:41:51 GMT -5
I probably wouldn't mind changing A-Up's damage bonus to straight +5, but neither do I think it's necessary. A fairly strong item would become weaker, but still useful sometimes.
The problem with (X) is just that there are so many against which tanking is nearly the only answer. Changing A-Up's damage bonus won't make much difference there.
|
|
|
Post by WesleyGibson on Jan 12, 2005 7:44:46 GMT -5
Well like I said much earlier in this thread, one of the reasons (X) weapons seem to be the be all end all is the fact that dodging is so woefully ineffective against them. If the number of hits were toned down, and the x/y dodge idea brought back, things would probably be a good bit different. Instead of having to avoid 10 or 15 attacks (possibly costing as much as half your PC total) you spend a much more reasonable amount dodging something with many hits.
|
|
|
Post by Aslan Cross on Jan 12, 2005 8:02:45 GMT -5
Giving it a little more thought, I realized that nerfing A-Ups for all weapon types will not contribute to the solution of the problem of tanking being infinitely better than dodging. However, I still think that tweaking the damage bonus is still a good stopgap measure while we work on trying to weaken (X) weapons themselves.
|
|
|
Post by Berrik on Jan 12, 2005 8:05:16 GMT -5
It doesn't make them useless. It just makes them better used with weaker units. Which is how the V-Ups in Advance were, pretty much, and these are just junior versions of those. Are you seriously telling me that you would ever waste an IS on anything that just gave +5 damage? Pretty much any of the percentage items are better than that.
|
|
|
Post by Arad Baranga on Jan 12, 2005 11:21:36 GMT -5
When you're in a Private-rank unit or thereabouts, that +5 can still make a pretty good difference. So yes, I would. Would I use it regularly? No. But (C)'s cheap enough that I don't really need to want to, and (SC) gives enough of a full bonus that it'd still be useful.
|
|
|
Post by Umbaglo on Jan 12, 2005 11:26:01 GMT -5
The percentage items are already better then A-Ups in the majority of cases anyway. The only time they arn't is when you either are in a unit with really low damage attacks, or you don't have tons of multiplicative abilities to boost that multihit further.
Personally, I agree with Johnny. And again, the damage bonus really isn't what matters, but the sheer number of hits.
|
|