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Post by Mechalomaniac on Jan 16, 2005 14:13:39 GMT -5
Yes, but why not just have nothing in the fight cost money? Sure there isn't any risk, but does there really need to be?
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Post by Blaine Kodos on Jan 16, 2005 14:20:41 GMT -5
PC dodging always struck me as weird anyway. I mean, are you bribing the attack to not hit you?
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Post by Arad Baranga on Jan 16, 2005 15:28:20 GMT -5
Well, there's also the fact that if we change it from costing money, we're gonna need a new name for the PC limit, and gonna have to make a lot of changes in the Hangar. A lot of changes. Of course if the Hangar mods have no problem with that, then it's a moot point...
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Post by Umbaglo on Jan 16, 2005 17:16:49 GMT -5
We don't really need a new name for PC limit, actually. I mean, no one changed the name of PCs themselves when they stopped meaning "Post Count".
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Post by Aslan Cross on Jan 16, 2005 19:13:45 GMT -5
If we remove the risk in battles, though, I personally think that it will clog up the fight queues even more, since there's nothing to really stop people from applying for 1297912739777 fights every day. However, there's also the problem of people not being able to fight because they don't have money.
Also, what use will we have for the PA? Having a separate board for weird and outrageous fights won't really be necessary.
Blaine> The most logical way to explain spending money to dodge is that you pay for the fuel you expend when you dodge. However, why you don't pay for repair costs and damage to your mech is something that people just whined about so much in the past (when money was REALLY HARD to get) that they took it out and never thought about putting them back in. I doubt the idea will be popular if we implement it now, as well.
I've also heard some people say that when they start to dodge, it's a sign that they're losing. I certainly beg to differ, being mostly an RR pilot and having to dodge a lot anyway. However, I usually do keep dodging as a last resort, or as an option to do something that my opponent wasn't really expecting me to do.
A compromise I was thinking of is this: (This is a mix of ideas that have been thrown about in the past, pardon me if I forget whose ideas these originally were.)
[/li][li] Instead of having a PC limit, we have a Dodge Pool, that's basically what our PC limit is now, except it's exclusively for dodging. This idea was mentioned before. The average value might have to be lower than 150, since it's used exclusively for dodging. The Propellant Tank might also be used for this, so it will have two effects: Either completely refill EN, or refill half (or 1/4) of the Dodge Pool. I don't know if this is a good idea, but certain particularly agile mechs may be able to have +Dodge Pool abilities. It seems pretty broken to me, but it may work.
[/li][li] The PC limit will still be there, but only for weapon/ability usage. It will have to be a lot lower as well, because PC-based spam will be a LOT more effective.
[/li][li] When the battle ends, you will still have to pay, in PCs, half of the amount of Dodge points that you spent, rounded up. I really don't like the idea of making battles completely free.
[/li][li] I don't want to add repair costs either, but if you want to go the realistic and logical way, here's an idea:
Repair costs depend on how badly damaged your mech is at the end of the battle, factoring in its rank.
Determining a unit's repair cost: End Battle HP%: 99-75 = 25 PCs End Battle HP%: 76-51 = 50 PCs End Battle HP%: 50-26 = 75 PCs End Battle HP%: 25-0 = 100 PCs
Furthermore, the unit's rank increases its repair cost. Private: Normal Corporal: x1.5 Sergeant: x1.75 Ensign: x2 Lieutenant: x2.5 Hi-Tier: x3 Boss: x3.5 Final Boss: x4 (I know it costs a lot, but it's not likely your Final Boss is gonna die, anyway)
Lastly, these have to be SERIOUSLY TESTED (Possibly apply it temporarily to the entire SC for a period of time so that everybody knows what it's like---EVO points count, but battles are free---only you'll be required to keep track of all the "virtual spending" you'll be doing so we can go over them at the end of the test period.) before implementation. As I've been saying, we need to tread carefully with this.
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Post by Mechalomaniac on Jan 16, 2005 19:29:06 GMT -5
After the Fight App Lockdown ends, there won't really be a problem with people queueing a large number of fights, as people will be limited to the number of fights they have queued.
As much as I like my job, you have a point about the PA. We could get rid of it or make it a third SC which will help keep the fight queue down even more and make things run a lot more quickly. Another idea is to make it an SC exclusivly for those large team battles that take a long time and cause headaches.
I'm not too fond of the idea of the dodging pool costing money, since it still presents the probelm of people not wanting to dodge. You could make the other PC pool be deducted however, as there would still be SOME cost incurred.
As for repair costs, the problem with the way you have it written is, a lot of times, you'll be losing more money than you make even if you win.
I do agree that whatever is done should be throughly tested though.
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Post by Aslan Cross on Jan 16, 2005 19:34:48 GMT -5
Honestly, I don't really know where everyone's money is going. We all get a lot more PCs than SC members ever used to get, but I still see people going bankrupt. What gives? But anyway, as much as some people may not budge on wanting dodging to be free, I'm not going to budge on my stand on it. I do not want dodging to be completely free. I can agree with dropping the cost as low as 1/4 or even 1/10 of the dodging pool. You will have to admit that there's no real challenge if there's absolutely no risk in a fight other than your reputation. It's almost like being on God Mode.
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Post by Umbaglo on Jan 16, 2005 19:36:23 GMT -5
There will be a limit on spamming fights, since each person only gets 5 slots for themselves in the fight app, remember.
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Post by Mechalomaniac on Jan 16, 2005 20:37:00 GMT -5
People buy stuff and see PCs as their resource to buy units, items, and classes, not as their resource for what they have to dodge with.
I can agree with there being some risk in fighting. I don't generally like to play on God Mode. However I don't really think that cost should extend to dodging alone. I guess you can call me a flip-floper on this one, but perhaps Kait is on the right track with just a flat cost no matter what happens. However I still think losing the entire PC limit is a bit too much. 1/2 or 1/4 might be better. 150 or 100 seems like a lot to lose, but 75 or 50 is a lot more appealing.
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Post by Avitar Diggs on Jan 16, 2005 20:52:00 GMT -5
Where do the PCs go, you ask? Well, I can tell you where mine go. New suits to try and keep up with others. I have only 1 Lt. ranked suit, my Gaia Gear. I don't even have too many Ensign ranked units, like 1 or 2. The great majority of my PCs went to my MD collection in the past, but ever since people started to bitch at me about it, i've cut down on it. I recently spent an abnormal amout in order to make RAID Strike and RAID Skygrasper. The great majority of my losses is atributed to my SC losses. I dono, maybe I just suck at this game, but if I have to start paying to repair the suits AND lose, I don't know how much longer i'll be able to stay in this game.
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Post by Tavish on Jan 16, 2005 22:32:59 GMT -5
Why is it that RRs have the ability to dodge X times per fight, where X is determined chiefly by the PC limit, whereas SRs have the ability to tank X times per fight, which is determined by many variables... but... is highly dependent on seishin!
Why does an SR class get better at tanking with UPs, whereas an RR class' dodging just... stay the same? Discarding special abilities such as bunshin, Dodge Cost stops at 5 and you dodge 20 times a fight... or 30... depending on the PC Limit! If an SR class never dodges, it gets more out of fighting in a low PC match, spending less to maximize Kiai, than an RR does! As it is with Tilus, a good Dynamic pilot does not fear numbers, only letters, like D E S T R O Y. This essentially means that SRs can easily be the gods of low-level mecha fighting.
If I were to really fix dodging, I'd make it source from something determined by pilot class, improvable with UPs, modified and replenishable by items, much as tanking essentially does. Dodge Cost can be whatever, but it won't fix that what you do to pay it is determined by a fight stipulation. Either both should be part of the inherent merits of the class, or both should be part of the stipulations.
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Post by CowboyJohnny on Jan 16, 2005 22:43:21 GMT -5
I like Kait's idea, but I'd change it a bit. Instead of giving the winner twice the PC limit and the loser paying the PC limit, I'd have the winner get 1.5*PC limit and have the loser pay .5*PC limit. That would just feel a little more like the two contestants have to pay a fee to have a fight done, equal to the fight's PC limit.
The repair-cost thing seems a little kooky. Why would my repair crew pay 100 PCs to fix my mech when they could buy a Repair Kit for less? Or a boss could sit around for a minute or two and regenerate all its HP.
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Post by Avitar Diggs on Jan 16, 2005 23:27:07 GMT -5
Not the best of ideas, but we could set min DC to 1...
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Post by Arad Baranga on Jan 17, 2005 1:30:22 GMT -5
I have to agree with Aslan on where the hell is everyone's PCs going. It's kind of silly.
On the other hand, why would we need a complicated solution, like repair costs and dodging pools? With the Dynamics being smacked down and soon defensive seishin to follow, the current system should be fine, except for having a bit more motivation to dodge and an equalizer for not dodging. That's where I was going with my idea. You're just as screwed if you lose whether you dodge or not, so you may as well try instead of half-assing things, and then the guys who don't have to dodge aren't getting off any better than you. Johnny's idea is a bit more merciful than mine though, and I don't mind that a bit. The concept's still intact.
In fact, I was kind of thinking of that earlier. We could do it on the front end. We could make it so that a fee of half the PC limit is required to be paid by both combatants to queue the fight, and then in-battle no costs would be incurred, and the prize would be reduced to 1.5x. This would help combat dodging/PC abilities as WELL as the fight queue, and definitely help the PA.
The Min DC = 1 thing... That would get really crazy really fast. Dodging being better is nice. Dodging being THAT much better is crazy. 100+ dodges from a VP in a speedy mecha... Nuts.
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Post by Trigger on Jan 17, 2005 2:44:08 GMT -5
We Could have the DC at the Lowest at 3 Instead. At a 100 PCed fight that would be 33 Dodges. At 150 it'll be 50 Dodges, and with all thouse wakcey (X)'s going around...
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