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Post by Rooster on Nov 23, 2004 8:46:13 GMT -5
MechWarrior is a subject that comes up regularly. I hear vigorous and roaring 'No MW!' commentary from higher up, yet I know quite a few people that enjoy it.
The purpose of this thread is to work out why people would or wouldn't like to see MW/BTech touch the SimChamber.
Personally, I like MechWarrior, having played both the RPG(not the wargame) and the computer game. I would like to see MW units add the ranks of existing mecha already in the SimChamber, yet am confused why some are so adamant against it. They're mecha, aren't they? Aren't we all mecha fanboys/fangirls here? Why not?
Let's see if we can work something out.
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Post by Umbaglo on Nov 23, 2004 9:23:53 GMT -5
The answer is very simple, and 2-fold.
First is that BattleMechs break one of the rules which limits what can be added to the hanger: All the units are too customizable.
Second is probably the most important one, though. The average power level of a BattleMech is below that of even a GM. Hell, I think TFO or a Ball could still outperform a BattleMech. Pretty much all mecha series units are way better armed, armoured, and mobile then a BattleMech.
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Post by Seth Valentine on Nov 23, 2004 10:36:55 GMT -5
So basically, adding the AFWs from the game Ring of Red would be out of the question too, based on what Umbaglo said.
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Post by Trigger on Nov 23, 2004 11:10:45 GMT -5
I don't think Proformance Would that bad of a problem considering that we have Dopp and small stuff like that.
Besides, it's nothing that Items and Pilot Classes can't "Cure"
And there's nothing wrong with a little custimization. as far as Customizing goes, you can only go so far on a Frame.
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Post by Julius Firefocht on Nov 23, 2004 11:46:59 GMT -5
Edit: I voted for "Hate it", but that does not mean I hate Battletech. This post is just to explain why I am against the idea. I repeat, I do NOT hate Battletech!I have played the Battletech board game before, and I have also played Mechwarror 2, 3 and 4, as well as all their expansions. My Battletech board game experience goes from the 3025 Record Sheets to the 3067 Record Sheets. I did not touch the game ever since the Word of Blake Jihad occured. Those in the know will know what I am talking about. As a Battletech player, I must object to them being introduced into the Simchamber. Here are my reasons: 1) Numbers There is literally a thousand over mech designs available in the Battletech universe, and more is being added even as we speak. It will be tough, if not impossible, to include even 50% of the number of mech designs into the SC. Even if we do somehow manage that feat, it will be hard to vary the mech designs from each other. As it is, it was already tough to vary the GMs fro each other, let alone hundreds of mechs. 2) Variance Clan Omnimechs allow for the switching of weapons and configurations in about 30 minutes. We will be effectively allowing players to change their weapons loadout before a battle if we bring in Clan Omnimechs. That may not be a big problem, but who will regulate the changes and ensure that all necessary paperwork are done? Allowing weapon changes also means creating an inventory system, so that players can keep track of how many weapons of what type they have at any one time for use in their Omnimechs. I have used the inventory systems before in one of my previous campaigns, and trust me, it is no joke when you manage a large force and you need to keep it supplied with spare parts. Where is that ER-PPC when I need it? Arghhh!3) Size compatibility An average mech is 30 foot tall. That means they are 10 meters tall. An assault mech can be as tall as 13, maybe 14 meters, depending on individual mech designs. In Simchamber terms, they can be termed as LL in size in comparison with the rest of the mechs in the Battletech world. The RX-78-2 is 17 meters tall. Great Mazinger is 25 meters tall. Those are termed as M in size. Daitarn 3 is 120 meters tall, and is termed L in size. Gunbuster is 250 meters tall, and that is termed LL. Where would the Assault Mechs, who are considered "huge" by Battletech standards, fit into our sizing system? Of course, this particular point can be ignored, but it feels weird fighting a Mad Cat that is supposed to be around your mecha's size when you know it isn't. 4) Power The Daishi is arguably the most powerful mech around in the Battletech world. Very heavily armed and armored, it is a true terror to most Battletech players. Yet a Gundam will be able to run circles around while chopping Daishis apart with its Beam Sabre. Kouji suddenly has a weird vision of Odin Ymir cleaving entire regiments apart with the Zankantou.A Ultra Autocannon-20 is regarded as one of the most powerful weapon a mech can ever carry. It is a 120mm autocannon capable of ripping through armor like hot knife through butter in the Battletech universe. However, the 120mm autocannon also happens to be the secondary armament of the Gundams from Gundam Wing. The power disparity is there, whether we like it or not. I don't think I need to elaborate on what a Super Robot can do to any mech regiment combat team or cluster in the Battletech universe. Once again, this particular point can be ignored, but that would mean that mechs in the SC will be inaccurately portrayed, with grossly increased firepower. I don't want to see a large laser damaging my Mazinger Z when I KNOW it won't even be able to scratch the paint job. 5) Game system In the Battletech board games, mechs don't die straightaway. Very often, arms and legs will get blown off before the mech starts taking any critical damage. Determining which body part that a weapon hits is determined by luck, namely a pair of 6-sided dice. Once armor is depleted, the weapons itself can actually get damage, and it is entirely possible to disable a mech by destroying all its weapons without destroying the mech itself. How will we implement that in the SC? It is possible, but it will raise the paperwork and calculations to an entirely new level. Once implemented, this hit-location system will have to be applied to the entire hangar of mecha we have, and individual body parts will have to be given their own HP, in addition to the mechs that will be introduced by then. That would mean a reform of the system that has been keeping the SC going for years. Are non-battletech players ready for the change? --- Of course, we can ignore all the above issues and insist on bringing Battletech into the SC. However, the stats of the mechs themselves will be no different from a heavily armed Gundam, like the GP03 Dendrobium Orchis or the Psycho Gundam. In that case, it would be easier to simply buy said units and just retheme them into an Atlas or a Turkina, just as Trigger has done with a few of his units, I believe. Kouji was thinking of buying a Valkyrie and retheming it into a Phoenix Hawk, but that's another story. In any case, we are going by the "majority win" rule and so if the majority wants it in, then I am game for it. After all, I would not mind melting down a Mad Cat into liquid endo-steel and ferro-fibrous. ;D
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Post by Rooster on Nov 23, 2004 12:03:14 GMT -5
> First is that BattleMechs break one of the rules which limits what can be added to the hanger: All the units are too customizable. Being able to alter the exact layout of their weapons could be the unique feature of the series. I can see in my mind exactly how I would implement it. Yes, you don't know for sure what his weapons are until he deploys... but you'll know what sort of weapons he'll have, if not their exact stats. Besides, you can always stip against arty beacons. I think it would be one of those "Try it, the worst that happens is that you'll like it." It's just different, that's all. And as we all know, SRW is about strange mecha from different universes meeting. > Second is probably the most important one, though. The average power level of a BattleMech is below that of even a GM. Hell, I think TFO or a Ball could still outperform a BattleMech. Pretty much all mecha series units are way better armed, armoured, and mobile then a BattleMech. Hrmm, power scale. Wasn't someone talking in channel just yesterday about how you can't compare Unit A in Series X to Unit B in Series Y directly, you have to look at it's relative strength within it's series? If this is the case, I could see it fairly easy to stat say, an Atlas, to a 100 HP mech with DR, +5 DC and a decent set of weaponry. Exactly how effective WOULD a Btech mech BE with a few IS slots and an actual pilot class? Oh, and as far as 'being weaker than a Dopp'... if a Dopp is basically a more powerful B-52... well, mechs in MW4 pretty much one or two hit kill everything that isn't another mech, and ignore the one weapon slot those units have unless they get swarmed. Personally, I think a MW unit would compare to gundams, sans flight and all that anime-dodgiing mobility. If you brought a Btech mech and put it in a universe like SRW where anime physics apply... well, I'd say it'd be the equal of a Gundam, straight up. Especially as far as firepower. The bottom line? I could come up with usable stats for Btech units in the SC. Especially if some time down the line we implement those hit regions like SRW GC has.
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Post by Julius Firefocht on Nov 23, 2004 12:16:20 GMT -5
> First is that BattleMechs break one of the rules which limits what can be added to the hanger: All the units are too customizable. Being able to alter the exact layout of their weapons could be the unique feature of the series. I can see in my mind exactly how I would implement it. Yes, you don't know for sure what his weapons are until he deploys... but you'll know what sort of weapons he'll have, if not their exact stats. Besides, you can always stip against arty beacons. I think it would be one of those "Try it, the worst that happens is that you'll like it." It's just different, that's all. And as we all know, SRW is about strange mecha from different universes meeting. > Second is probably the most important one, though. The average power level of a BattleMech is below that of even a GM. Hell, I think TFO or a Ball could still outperform a BattleMech. Pretty much all mecha series units are way better armed, armoured, and mobile then a BattleMech. Hrmm, power scale. Wasn't someone talking in channel just yesterday about how you can't compare Unit A in Series X to Unit B in Series Y directly, you have to look at it's relative strength within it's series? If this is the case, I could see it fairly easy to stat say, an Atlas, to a 100 HP mech with DR, +5 DC and a decent set of weaponry. Exactly how effective WOULD a Btech mech BE with a few IS slots and an actual pilot class? Oh, and as far as 'being weaker than a Dopp'... if a Dopp is basically a more powerful B-52... well, mechs in MW4 pretty much one or two hit kill everything that isn't another mech, and ignore the one weapon slot those units have unless they get swarmed. Personally, I think a MW unit would compare to gundams, sans flight and all that anime-dodgiing mobility. If you brought a Btech mech and put it in a universe like SRW where anime physics apply... well, I'd say it'd be the equal of a Gundam, straight up. Especially as far as firepower. The bottom line? I could come up with usable stats for Btech units in the SC. Especially if some time down the line we implement those hit regions like SRW GC has. In addition to my previous post, I think one of the biggest problems with taking a Btech mech and simply putting it into the SRW world is this: We simply do not know what will happen and how to determine their power. Will an I-Field be able to deflect laser beams from the Btech universe? Will a PPC be able to peel away armor the way it does in Btech? Just what is the power of a Gauss Rifle relative to say, the Xiphias Railgun in the Freedom Gundam? All these are questions that have to be confronted and resolved. Given the large amount of weapons Btech has, it is not an easy task. Besides, Battletech's weapon systems depend on one very important variable: heat. How would we solve that particular issue, given that Omnimechs have variable number of heat sinks and every weapon produces a different amount of heat when fired? Heck, even jumping, running or even just walking produces heat in mechs in Btech. How can we solve that particular issue, in addition to all the problems and diffficulties I mentioned?
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Post by Rooster on Nov 23, 2004 12:21:50 GMT -5
1) Numbers Oh god, yes. Which is why the only reason I'd want to use something other than stats from MW4(it's recent, doesn't seem to suffer any major imbalances, and I have it handy,) is because there are non-mech vehicles and such there... as well as mech-sized melee weapons. 2) Variance And yet you do it now for your installables. It would be no different. 3) Size They would range from S to M... sure. But they wouldn't exactly be alone in that size bracket. 4) Power We could 'fudge' them upwards in the name of balance easily enough as well. Yes, MW units are, comparing actual numbers, weakish. But they can be adjusted upward to fit in on a playable level. I never exactly fired one of them at a time, either. A MW unit doesn't fire one weapon, he spams his enemy. There are ways to allow this without making it a "1 Damage x 100" mech. (Such as treating a volley as at most a few hits) 5) Game System Yea, losing hit locations in the name of SCifying it changes things a fair amount, but it's an adaptation of system. Besides, SRW GC has hit locations, so some day the SC may as well, much to the groaning of the board mods.
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Post by Rooster on Nov 23, 2004 12:26:28 GMT -5
I've... got a Heat system worked out. Your EN bar becomes a reversed heat gauge, basically. I've played with some ideas. It seems to accurately model the heat system without needing any additional stats.
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Post by Yanbetari on Nov 23, 2004 12:37:30 GMT -5
Hate to say it, but I've got to stand with Kouji on this one. I loved the games, but as it stands MW units just don't really fit the stat setup of the SC as it is today. The sheer numbers would drive the Hangar Mods insane, and to give an accurate level of customizability would require essentially a dressup that could be redressed between matches for no cost. Considering that there are math errors when people make dressups even once, doing it potentially once a match would be trouble waiting to happen. Also, the heat dynamic just doesn't carry over well. In MW, you could fire an energy weapon an effectively inifinte number of times. So would Battlemechs get weapons like this? ER PPC (B) - 30 damage A free attack of that power could be exceedingly broken. Just look at what Gundam Hammer used to be. We make it much weaker, and Battlemechs would be horribly outclassed by everything in the SC. We give it an EN cost, but then we'd need to give stuff like EN Regen to represent the effects of heat sinks, and Regen, even at small levels, can make a big difference. Maybe in the future, when area based damage exists (ala SRWGC), and we've got some of these other problems solved, we could add them. But for now, I'd say just stick to renaming Grunt, Gundam, and PT Dressups.
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Post by Regris Kallen on Nov 23, 2004 12:43:34 GMT -5
I'm neutral on this. I like BTech, but I still think the idea of BTech in the SC, as a mech series, would be a iffy idea. From what I've seen of your "ideas", though, Roo, I think it might be an interesting idea to be considered.
And Yan, basically, I think "Heat" would be handled with EN... Well, it's a theory. You'll see how it turns out.
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Post by Julius Firefocht on Nov 23, 2004 12:48:16 GMT -5
1) Numbers Oh god, yes. Which is why the only reason I'd want to use something other than stats from MW4(it's recent, doesn't seem to suffer any major imbalances, and I have it handy,) is because there are non-mech vehicles and such there... as well as mech-sized melee weapons. 2) Variance And yet you do it now for your installables. It would be no different. 3) Size They would range from S to M... sure. But they wouldn't exactly be alone in that size bracket. 4) Power We could 'fudge' them upwards in the name of balance easily enough as well. Yes, MW units are, comparing actual numbers, weakish. But they can be adjusted upward to fit in on a playable level. I never exactly fired one of them at a time, either. A MW unit doesn't fire one weapon, he spams his enemy. There are ways to allow this without making it a "1 Damage x 100" mech. (Such as treating a volley as at most a few hits) 5) Game System Yea, losing hit locations in the name of SCifying it changes things a fair amount, but it's an adaptation of system. Besides, SRW GC has hit locations, so some day the SC may as well, much to the groaning of the board mods. I believe I should elaborate a bit on the Inventory system. Having an inventory means you possess a collection of equipment that can be used on any mech when needed. Ths is essential for Omnimechs, which can change their configurations. In SC terms, that means you have to know where every single weapon is currently at at any one time. That is tough because a heavily armed Omnimech will come with at least 10 weapons. When you have 10 Assault Omnimechs, that will mean 100 individual weapons that you have to keep track of at any one time. When you switch weapons on Omnimechs, you have to make sure that every weapon you used for that mech is recorded as being in use. Are people ready for this kind of paperwork? Are mods able to keep track on the numerous custom mech designs that are bound to spring out in player's AM accounts? There is a huge difference in managing 10 items and 100 weapons, trust me. If you fudge them upwards in the name of balance, how different will they be from any other heavily armed Gundams? Until this issue is settled, there can be no real progress in discussions, because the solution will still be to buy an existing Gundam and retheme it into a mech. Since we are now on the topic of weapon systems, how will weapons on mechs be fired in using the SC's systems? Since mechs use spam as their weapon, how can we regulate it for balancing? For example, would'nt the A-Up Unit (SC) become horrendously broken when used on them? The hit locations in SRW GC is primitive compared to the one in Btech. From the promo video, SRW GC has 3 hit locations. Btech has 8 hit locations, excluding rear armor. How will the heat system be implemented, considering that heat affects a mech's entire performance in the board game? Will the system be applied to all other units in the SC as well? I believe the bottom line is whether the mods are willing to invest so much time and effort creating systems and stats for essentially a few units in the Hangar. Finally, if we are creating so much new game systems and solving so much design problems for a system that is only applicable for one series of units in the SC, without trying to sound rude, I would seriously suggest that a separate game be created out of it. At the end of the day, I personally believe that Btech and SRW are simply incompatible with each other in all ways. Attempts to bridge the gap between the two universes will only cause one of the two universes to be either overpowered or underpowered when compared to its true power levels.
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Post by Trigger on Nov 23, 2004 15:06:43 GMT -5
heat wouldn't be too hard, just Flip the Heat around for EN and give them a Small Regan (5%-10%)
As For Being too Cutomizeable, the Just Put the Primary Configurations in the Hanger.
If we Need Customizations, then just Meet halfway and Make a BTech Dress up
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Post by Arad Baranga on Nov 23, 2004 15:21:30 GMT -5
Here's what I think: Since we don't even have all of the units or series that BTech ripped off (like Dougram), why don't we wait and see if those get in first, and then move for this after that?
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Post by Trigger on Nov 23, 2004 15:26:30 GMT -5
Then We would only be Postponing this Discussion
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