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Post by Umbaglo on Sept 27, 2004 21:00:11 GMT -5
It's not reversable, though. An SR can get a DC better then half the RR classes with a single mid-tier item, but no RR class can hope to get the same damage boosting or DR a SR class can get. And any item which boosts damage or DR can also be used by an SR class for an even large effect, while an RR class sees virtually no bonus from an item which reduced DC.
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Post by WesleyGibson on Sept 27, 2004 23:09:54 GMT -5
I have to say, given the overall strength of tensai, would it be so bad to extend it's anti-status powers to the newer effects?
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Post by Mechalomaniac on Sept 28, 2004 0:51:35 GMT -5
I have to agree about the minimum DCs. As it stands a Mazinger/Getter/Gren Pilot can get a dodge cost of 5 just like a Valkyrie pilot, but also be able to tank at least 4 times the damage. Unless someone wants to create a Mid-Tier Item that gives a RR pilot a Dairyoku Ability of their choice, it's not exactly a fair playing field.
As my 2 cents on other ideas:
Gren/Getter DC switch: Sounds good. Like Tilus said, Getter is the most nimble of the Dynamic units in the games.
Super/Hyper mode DC mods: I'm probably biased on this one, but that would be nice. As it is Hyper Mode is Good, and Super Mode is ok, but they are outclassed by other HP and Actication based abilities (SEED mode and Dairyoku just to name a few).
Infight/Gunfight mods for Gundam Fighter/Valkyrie Pilot: Once again I'm biased on about half of this but an inherent damage increase would be good, as these two classes are definatly centered around Melee and Ranged attacks respectivly.
Ninja Stealth overriding unit Stealth: Why should a Ninja Senshi be worse in something with a Stealthy ability than one without? Overriding makes perfect sense.
SP Boosts: No problem with this.
Full Tension DC Mod: I don't have an EH, nor do I know anything about playing one so I refuse to comment.
X/Y DC Mods: Johnny's idea of "X to dodge one attack, Y for each additional attack" sounds good to me.
Expanded Status Negation for Tensai: Seeing as they don't have much special in the way of battle abilities, it's not a bad idea. Maybe something like taking a % of their Hit Points in damage like Bosses do from DESTROY L2?
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Post by Mafty Navue Erin on Sept 28, 2004 1:39:39 GMT -5
About the Gunfight idea...like Frost said, let's try to handle the changes to the VP first. Then we try to evaluate these abilities if ever another update is needed.
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Post by Frost Winterheim [In Suit] on Sept 28, 2004 2:04:17 GMT -5
Hmmm...the minimum DC for the Dynamics is logical. But does it need to apply to all classes?
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Post by Umbaglo on Sept 28, 2004 6:16:30 GMT -5
Eis keeps saying that the GFs get more agile in the games once they hit Super/Hyper, so there's reasoning behind that.
As for min, Yuusha as well, but every other class would probably end up having 5 for it in the end.
Oh, and Mecha, Tensais are immune to DESTROY:L2 and below.
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Post by WesleyGibson on Sept 28, 2004 7:56:34 GMT -5
It's level 3 that they can't deal with, and level 3 weapons are huge. I don't have a problem with lvl 3 going through tensai. But certain weapon effects like... en drain and virus, these are going to be pretty powerful when we get them in wider circulation, and the tensai has no special abilities defensively (unless we leave out using a small number of barriers better) that make up the difference. They have a pretty high dodge and none of the inherent DR, extra shields, stealths, heavy metal power, yuusha powers, psychic overloads, or low CC that make other classes work at that DC or close to it. Reduced consumption is nifty, but it doesn't really make up the difference in most cases. If status immunity is going to be their defensive claim to fame, let it take care of our new persistant and annoying status weapons as well.
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Post by RurouninMao on Sept 28, 2004 8:16:54 GMT -5
Gren/Getter DC switch: sounds reasonable
Super/Hyper Mode DC mod: Well from what i see in MX, they do dodge better once they hit Super/Hyper (especialy Hyper, Man Domon can really dodge everything XD)
Infight i can accept, Gunfight, well lets wait till maft fiinish with the VPs first
Ninja Senshi Stealth thing>Sounds reasonable as well, maybe we should give back its Snipe Ability XD
SP Boost: Agreed, but need to be balanced so that those with already BIG sp limit shouldnt get even Bigger
Full Tension DC mod: hmm well they do get a set DC of 5, but if you prefer a - to DC thats ok to me
X/Y DC cost: im kinda 50/50 about this
Tensais expanded defense: sound ok, but i dont think tensai's should be able to Stop everything, maybe Virus, but EN damage i dont think so
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Post by Yanbetari on Sept 28, 2004 8:40:56 GMT -5
1) SP boost for classes - I'm kind of neutral on this. One one hand, more SP might make some of those more expensive seishin far more useful. On the other, it might just mean you can spam Flash more, or have to cut through yet another Greater Pers. on an SR. If it does go through, I think the RR classes should get more of a boost than the SRs, as the SR classes already have way more SP, and arguably much nastier abilites otherwise. Also, what happened to class based SP cost? This that idea die?
2) Swap Gren/Getter DC/CC - Fair enough. Getters took a kind of big hit when their DR dropped from /3 to /2, so among the SRs, Getters are the ones who need to dodge the most.
3) Change Full Tension DC mod? - Again, makes sense. If Antibodies can have a DC of 5 -1, I don't see why EH can't too.
4) DC mod for Gundam Fighters in Super/Hyper - Well, a better DC is always good, as even with Hyper mode we can't tank everything. Though it does make us GFs a bit more reliant on Super/Hyper Mode.
5) Ninja Senshi Stealth overwriting unit Stealth, if lower - Well, I can see cases where unit Stealth might be a better option, as Ninja Stealth doesn't give the extra +3 DC aftereffect. So we could leave is as an option to choose when deploying which to use. Or we could just make it the lower one, and give the Ninjas the +3 DC effect. Either way.
6) X/Y DC mods - Meh. I think this is just going to introduce all sorts of problems with how DC mods are factored in and stuff, and I can see people finding and exploiting loopholes for months after this is implemented.
7) Minimum DC for classes - I whole heartedly agree with this. As has already been stated, an SR can get a DC of 5 very easily, while an RR has no chance of getting Damage Amplification and Reduction on par with SRs. A lower DC cap of -10 would do much to alieviate this situation
8) Infight/Gunfight Bonuses - Well, we've seen that VPs need a boost, as do Gundam Fighters, so I'm all for this.
9) Extended Status Negation - Why not? If a Tensai can take an attack that would normally obliterate their unit without blinking, why would they then be susceptible to an attack that just knocks out their armor for a bit? Adding immunites to Armor Break and Virus makes sense. Though I wouldn't extend it to EN/SP Damage/Drain, as those aren't status attacks. Just different types.
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Post by Frost Winterheim [In Suit] on Sept 29, 2004 0:17:14 GMT -5
SP limit increase will push through. Discussion with how much boost each pilot class will get can begin.
Minimum DC will push through. Discussion with how low each pilot class's dodge cost can get can begin. Prioritize the Dynamics and other high DC classes: 15 DC and up. RR's should get a 5 minimum DC nevertheless.
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Post by Mechalomaniac on Sept 29, 2004 0:41:00 GMT -5
Minimum DC suggestions, feel free to comment/flame.
Tensai: I'd suggest this also be at 5. They don't have much in the way of overwhelming offensive pilot abilities, so a low min DC would be another help.
Yuusha: 10 or even 9 would be good. They don't have the overwhelming defense of the Dynamics, and rely a bit more on dodging than the other classes.
Mazinger Pilot: They have the strongest defense, and thus need to dodge least of the three classes. Off hand I'm going to suggest 15 for their minimum.
Grendizer Pilot: Sleightly less defense than a Mazinger Pilot. I'm going to suggest 14 for them.
Getter Pilot: It's been well established that these are the most evasive Dynamic units in the games, so I'm going to suggest 13.
SP Boost Suggestions:
I'm not gonna try to get into the symantics of exact numbers but as it stands Super pilots have a lot more SP than Real pilots. Maybe something along the lines of 50% increase for Real pilots and something like 25% for Super classes, then again I'm not sure how much of a boost we're talking about here.
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Post by RurouninMao on Sept 29, 2004 8:47:10 GMT -5
hmm how about this?
All class at the moment with 150 MAX SP or Higher gets a 25% increase
All Class that ahs 140 or5 lower get s a 50% increase
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Post by Yanbetari on Sept 29, 2004 10:28:20 GMT -5
Mao's SP boost sounds good roughly. But could you make all the values rounded off to even 10s? Makes setting starting SP easier.
DC Suggestions: Mazin: 17 Gren: 16 Getter: 15 Yuusha: 10 Everyone else: 5 This may seem a bit unfair, but I was using DC -10 as the general rule, and a lot of the classes that have 20 DC are the kind who get a DC of like 10 better in their class units anyway, so putting the cap right at that point seemed a bit unfair. For some of them, like CoE or MS, we could have a min DC of 10 outside their class units, but a min of 5 in them.
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Post by Arad Baranga on Sept 29, 2004 10:29:01 GMT -5
That's a good hard and fast way to do it, though maybe a little more consideration should go in to individual classes beyond that. And it'd be nice for the ultimate max for all classes to be a multiple of 5 too. Minimum DC suggestions, feel free to comment/flame. Tensai: I'd suggest this also be at 5. They don't have much in the way of overwhelming offensive pilot abilities, so a low min DC would be another help. Makes sense to me since in OG Tensai was pretty much the Banpresto VP. Also, if the X/Y dodging went through, would there then be a maximum /Y? As for the comment about the X/Y that you made, Yan, this was actually a point I was stressing for a long while until it was suggested to make the /Y only apply to attacks from one source and Snipe Attack would be modded. Snipe itself wouldn't be a problem because it removes multihit properties from weapons. So it wouldn't likely be an issue, and the moment someone found a loophole it could be patched easily, I think.
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Post by RurouninMao on Oct 1, 2004 8:18:55 GMT -5
After Some thought, i dont think switching a Getters and Grens DC is a good idea.
THink about it, all of the SR classes main enemy is DPK attacks. Mazin got the Soul fo Chogokin, Getters Got Open Get, Gren got........nuthing. Firstly leave the thought of the dairyoku at the door for the moment, since non of em are gonna help you when a DPK is heading your way. Now about the Argument that Getters are the Speedy one, yes i agree, but they are Speedy in Getter units which is well represented by the Open Gets and Mach Special/Getter Vision. SO in note i say we just leave them as they are and concentrate else where
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