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Post by tiffac on Jan 16, 2003 1:22:45 GMT -5
Well Eva's are AT Field dependant thats why I feel the AT Field should have a damage modifier when it breaks, so it would really show how the Eva's rely on its barrier.
If that is not possible then an adjustment to the HP and dodge should be inorder to compensate. We can't have all its stats be too faithful to SRW that it would look too bad in the SC right?
btw I almost forgot
Maybe we can help the Eva dodge if we lessen the drop in EN from 5 to how about 1 or 2 per turn. Atleast that would remove the lagging +10 when the plug is on all the time.
Also ain't it about time to make them (M) and (P) weapons the way it should be them bazooka's and swords and nuke tips you know ;D
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Post by Mafty Navue Erin on Jan 16, 2003 4:48:29 GMT -5
Yeah, the -5 EN drop should be dumbed down to -2 or -1 every turn.
as for the +1 IS....I'd rather increase the HP rather than put it there, since that's also another factor to the Ninja Scroll abuse.
*would like to prevent abusable combos as much as possible in the SC*
and yes, it's a good idea to at least reduce the DC of Eva's.
As for the system thing, I think the reason that alfimy made it into a system is because 100% EN regen/turn isn't something to be laughed at, since it gives the unit unlimited attack resources.
One idea is to downgrade the regen of the Eva plug system and make it into a non-system and just make it so that when an Eva's EN reaches 0 while still having the plug equipped, it doesn't get paralyzed or something.
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Post by tiffac on Jan 16, 2003 5:00:51 GMT -5
I see your point on the +1 IS Maftster
That idea of yours, not getting paralyze when the plug is still on is a great idea, never thought of that ;D
hmm... final analysis is we could just erase the System from the plug unit altogether that should end the non-versitality of an Eva's but that sounds too much of a quick fix.
The idea of lessening the regen would take us off from being faithful to SRW though and that where the problem lies just like in the AT Field case. :/
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Post by tarbis on Jan 16, 2003 8:06:01 GMT -5
The plug actually is the biggest weakness and that's laughable. The 100% EN regen is essential since it only have 1IS, really low EN capacity, +10 to dc, weapons that take 1/3 of it's EN, -5 EN/turn and the added paralysis w/o the plug.
The disadvantage is 5 to 1. Opponents don't need to worry about the advantage. The 5 disadvantage is more than enough to kill an Eva in a few turns maybe in just 1 turn. If Maoron was allowed to use the Economizer and PX system. The Eva promo was just a waste of time, and an Economizer and PX system is more than abusable, not to mention with the additional abilities of a MH, and the MH didn't have one disadvantage that I can think of.
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Post by Zebris Furchois on Jan 16, 2003 8:51:25 GMT -5
The reason why the unit Mao used had "no disadvantages" was three-fold;
1) He had a Zero System. 2) He had an abusable status attack. 3) Zamzeed has "burrow", a free dodge.
Against most anything out there, a MH in a Zamzeed would be overpowering. You can't justify your reasonings for such mods for the EVAs based on it.
If you want to really see how things compare with the current stats, challenge someone to a one on one, perishables only match Tarbis. That should prove the power of the EVA alot better than the promo. did, and then after that, we'll discuss how to power it up further. That sound good to you?
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Post by tarbis on Jan 16, 2003 10:09:06 GMT -5
Hik: And those 3 folds add up to the 5 that I mentioned, That's 8 disadavantage in favor of just one measly 100% EN regen. And there's no need to challenge others, yer ability alone can destroy the Evas easily with yer choice of unit even with just perish.
But, the burrow and status attack are all fine to me, since the Evas also have status attack and a barrier. The fact the Zero-sys is more than a threat. It took all of us just to kill Maoron. You yerself did a agree with DC that the Zero-sys alone spoiled it all. right?
Also the fact the high dc of Eva child outside Eva is another plus to the disadvantage, which means it's restricted and have to take risk using other units unlike yours and other abilites, you can take it anywhere you like without worrying a thing.
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Post by Mafty Navue Erin on Jan 16, 2003 14:06:09 GMT -5
Well, most likely, Eva pilots will just have a normal DC of 20 outside an Eva. Cant get any lower than that outside an Eva. You cant possibly ask for a low DC outside an Eva. In many ways, this is similar to the MH class. This is the price to pay for being a class-limited class with very heavy dependence on a certain unit.
As for the Eva's weaknesses, yes, there will be ways for it to be lessened.
But get this: The reason why it took all of you just to kill Mao is because at that time, he's a MH in a MK, which is roughly the same as an EC in a Eva, except the fact that he has a Zero System *and* a status attack.
Yes, as for being faithful to the game, yes, we are trying to be, however, once in-game elements lead to abusable scenarios, that's the time we think of another solution.
As for choice of units as weaknesses of Eva's...tell me, will you really choose to fight a unit that has your weakness as its strength? No, right?
Tarbis, we *are* going to upgrade the Eva's to reflect their nature as a class-limited thing, but we are going to upgrade them in a way that it's not so abusable.
Eva's are strong in one side and weak in another. It's just a matter of finding the right balance in between them without paving the way to abusability.
As for the plug, you're not reading what has been said. I said that the DC of Eva's will most probably be decreased, which means that the addition of DC from the plug might be lessened or even scrapped, depending on circumstances.
Added paralysis without the plug: That cant be removed no matter how you argue against it. That's the strict nature of Eva's.
System-class: As I said, it may be dumbed down and made into a non-system.
As for MH's having no disadvantage, think of it this way: They dun have a barrier that stops most attacks. Which means they can still fall prey to X-cheese. In an Eva, you wont have to worry about such.
hence, you see what I mean? having a free barrier that stops DOUBLE the amount of an Aura Barrier and Nendou Field is already strong. Top that with 100% EN Regen and you have a monster defensive unit. heck, i'd say that Eva's are Lt-class units. The only problem that I see is the fact that the Eva's have very little defense when it comes to their weaknesses, which means that when faced with a unit that concentrates on their weakness, Eva's are easy prey. This is what should be corrected. Eva's should have decent defense against those.
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Post by tiffac on Jan 17, 2003 3:08:16 GMT -5
Hay! Tarbis I'll take that Eva of yours against my Diablo anyday bwahahaha! you can team up with Perm like you promise you guys would against me. hah! ;D
I think it pretty much already clear whats gonna be change in for the Eva's. an HP increase, Plug changes (from not being paralyze with the plug on even if EN reaches 0, to 1 or 2 EN lose per turn when the plug is off), The plug system class could be taken out, hence making the Eva more versatile even with 1 IS.
Not bad since the weapons of the Eva's will not be change and that ugh... damage modifier will still remain. I say the Eva's are in for a good fix. with ability likely ends up with a 20 to dodge.
btw
What about the "Bite attack" when the Eva-01 goes berserk? we should lessen the cost of that too or we could make it EN base since an Eva-01 in berserk mode loses the plug hence loses the EN regen right?
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Post by tarbis on Jan 19, 2003 10:20:56 GMT -5
In the game, the S2 engine is an inherent in Eva-01 Berserk mode, if you guys wanna use the EN instead, I think 2 - 3EN/attack is good enough, since that's the only attack it can do and at low EN capacity...
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Post by Aslan Cross on Jan 19, 2003 19:44:39 GMT -5
Actually, the S2 Engine is an inherent ability on both the EVA-01 AND the Berserk EVA-01, but only IF you whacked the snot out of Zeruel with the EVA-01's Berserk attack.
I think the current S2 Engine system is fine.
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Post by tiffac on Jan 20, 2003 1:45:43 GMT -5
The S2 engine hmm...
I think it should not be an item... rather it should be a special case of upgrade for the Eva-01.
Like the Granzon it will take 10 SC fights before in upgrades to Neo-Granzon. So why not have the Eva-01 have 10 SC fights before it gains the S2 engine as and evolve ratio?
With only 1 IS and the S2 engine being an item it would be useless to plug in one but then again with the talk of the Ninjitsu scroll abuse in an Eva it could be bleak to see the S2 engine as inherit or evolve base.
hmm...
We could have an turn base ratio for the full regen of the S2 engine like if your gonna use Stealth in a Gromlin or if your a Ninja Senshi and it would be base the number of charge on rank too. We can even apply it to the plug!
I know its a take away of being true to SRW but this is the only option I can see to make the S2 Engine a non-item but a evolve base ability for the Eva-01 and the plug as a non-abusable full regen.
I think the 2 EN lose without the plug and a leveled 20 EN for all Eva stats will compensate if we make the plug/S2 engine into a turn base/charge ratio. What you guys think?
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Post by tarbis on Jan 20, 2003 2:28:56 GMT -5
Making the plug a turn base regen would make it much worst and useless than it is, considering everyone is already against adding another IS to the Evas. The plug already has a +10 to dc already, isn't that more than enough punishment for it??
And why are you guys thinking about the Ninjitsu Scroll, I'm sure all of you guys are not stupid enough to let a person get what he wants, which is me the only one. Mafty already cut me off from the last auction and he won't hesitate to do it again just to prevent me from getting one, how much more from you guys. So stop bring that up again. You already know the results for that.
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Post by Mafty Navue Erin on Jan 20, 2003 3:12:19 GMT -5
No, the S2 Engine will never be an inherent ability, because it's....VERY abusable.
As for the Eva's, dun worry. Me and Hik have already discussed it in a long discussion and we've come up with the new updates. Will be posting it here as sson as they get organized.
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Post by tiffac on Jan 20, 2003 3:26:06 GMT -5
Then whats the use of the S2 Engine in the DABA it will forever be a design no one will buy that and install it on a 1 IS mech with many weaknesses?
Oh! new updates ok well look at that first before we continue.
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Post by Mafty Navue Erin on Jan 20, 2003 8:01:31 GMT -5
Then whats the use of the S2 Engine in the DABA it will forever be a design no one will buy that and install it on a 1 IS mech with many weaknesses? Oh! new updates ok well look at that first before we continue. Oh yes, you should have never said that before looking at my post...-_- As I said, Eva's are two sides of a coin. They have their total strengths (against X-weapons, for example) and their total weaknesses. The one reason you guys kept on saying Eva's are weak is because of the fact that their weaknesses are easily seen and totally exposed *and* many mechs have abilities that easily prey on the weaknesses of Eva's. As for the S2 Engine, useless you say? If it's useless, then let's try limiting it to an inherent ability on the Berserk Eva-01 and remove it from the DABA. ...Still think it's useless? Nope. It's not. In fact, far from it. You will know the reason when the new stats come out. So, please, do not say Eva's are weak. They have their strengths and their weaknesses. Let's leave it at that. Till then, shut up and wait for the stats. ;D ;D ;D
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