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Post by Rooster on Feb 23, 2005 10:38:59 GMT -5
Three ideas, each of which can be looked at separately. (Although in writing this, I started blending them together.)
The first is to the class itself. It isn't really a big change, it just alters how SDL activates. If anything, it's a slight nerf, since you don't get the full power of what you need the most to live during the early turns. (Can't just activate Tenacity on turn 2 and get full DR for that spam. Plus, at higher levels, it definitely takes longer.)
Masoukishin Herald
Starting Max SP: 100
Maximum SP Cap: 200
Skills & Abilities:
- Dodge Cost is 15. Minimum Dodge Cost is 5.
- Countercut: 2 EN or 5 PCs
- Only ones able to pilot Masoukishins.
- Spirit Dependancy: Infuses pilot with status upgrades according to rank. Can only be activated in units with Spirit Dependancy Link. Each turn, increment the level of the bonus until the pilot's (or unit's) rank is reached.
Private: Dodge Cost -2, Weapon Damage +20%, Damage Received -10% Corporal: Dodge Cost -4, Weapon Damage +40%, Damage Received -20% Sergeant: Dodge Cost -6, Weapon Damage +60%, Damage Received -30% Ensign: Dodge Cost -8, Weapon Damage +80%, Damage Received -40% Lieutenant: Dodge Cost -10, Weapon Damage +100%, Damage Received -50% Masoukishin: Unlock wazas which are 'Sealed' in Masoukishins. Boss: Dodge Cost -15, Weapon Damage +150%, Damage Received -75%
Conversion Cost: 1300 PCs
Series of Origin: Masoukishin: The Lord of Elemental (c/o Banpresto)
The second involves the SDL inherent in the unit: instead of LSDL, SDL and GSDL...each masouki-type unit has the inherent Spirit Dependancy Link (Rank), where Rank is the maximum level of attunement to that unit that SDL can raise to. For instance, according to the above character class, LSDL is actually Spirit Dependancy Link (Sergeant), the four Masoukishins have Spirit Dependancy Link (Masoukishin), and bosses with GSDL have Spirit Dependancy Link (Boss).
The final change is to allow Masoukishins to activate a low level of SDL in any unit without a Prana Converter, but the prana converter would raise the level you can attune to. For example, being able to activate SDL to the level of corporal naturally in anything, but the prana converter would raise that to say, Sergeant or Ensign.
This would make MHs slightly weaker at full power (as it takes them longer to activate everything), however more useful at lower power levels, and in units outside their series. This would also make the Prana Converter more in line with the strength of a Mid Tier item, as it would be giving less of a benefit in itself.
Another, related idea, is to add a high tier Prana Booster, which raises the SDL level of a unit by one. (Which would allow full lieutenant level in combination with a PC in any unit, but that's two IS slots, or GSDL in a masoukishin.) However, this idea is definitely high tier.
So, this change boils down to: A slight increase in time for SDL to fully deploy in full SDL and GSDL. An increase in an MH's ability to work outside of MH units. A restructuring of the SDL inherent itself to provide more flexibility. A rebalancing of what the Prana Converter does.
Comments?
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Post by Tristan on Feb 23, 2005 17:19:40 GMT -5
Everyone always prattles on, going. "Why are you such a Jerk, Tristan? Why don't you post your ideas in the thread, instead of yelling them?" My main problem here is that it doesn't accurately reflect the nature of SDL, or how it appears in the games. Spirit Dependcy link in the games is made up of two factors..
One is that Prana in LOE raised all the Masouki(shin)'s stats. Your level of prana would increase HP/EN/Damage and so on by a certain percentadge. The second is the fact that the *SOME* LoE units do infact have a spirit dependncy ability. Which is basically raised stats at a higher morale level. The thing here is, all this stuff only works in Masouki(shin) units.
Thusly, I don't like the idea because it goes very much against canon for the sake of giving a minor boost to an already pretty strong class. The Prana Converter is about as Out of Canon as we should get, really.
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Post by Yanbetari on Feb 23, 2005 18:38:55 GMT -5
I agree with Tristan. We don't need this in the SC.
Masoukishin Herald are not weak class. People love to point out that without SDL, MHs are basically classless with Seishin. Thing is, that's kind of the point. The ability to use Prana is the whole point of a Masoukishin Herald. Without it, they're just average people. It's with it that they become super death machines. Of course, people might not want to pilot Masouki all the time, so we have the Prana Converter. Now, I've pointed this out before, but the Prana Converter is debatably the most powerful mid-tier item in the SC. +60% damage dealt, -30% received, and -6 DC. So it's like a better A-Up(C), a better Chogokin, and a better Tesla Drive all rolled into one. Yes, it eats up an IS but it still offers a massive boost. Furthermore, Masoukishin Heralds are not the only class that has to deal with these sorts of restirctions. Gundam Fighters without Super/Hyper have to rely on their CC, Sei Senshi outside an Aura Battler just have 5 DC, and Children of Eva outside an EVA unit are a joke. The point is that all these classes give up some degree of versatility to become stronger in their class units. Some of them make the same trade MH do, using emulators, such as Gundam Fighters and Trace Systems. Of course, Aura Barrier is High-Tier, and doesn't allow Hyperize. CoE don't even get that much. So why should one unit dependent class get a boost, while all the other's don't? Unless you feel like offering Aura Barrier, Super Mode, and Synchonate in every unit, too.
Now, considering that, let's look at what you're proposing here. At corporal, MH have a DC of 11, +40% damage dealt, -20% received. Compare that to Yuusha, who get +30%/-30% at LT, but dodge for 18. Or how about PT, who only get +25%/-0%, DC of 15. HM gives +0%/-25%, DC of 13. Now, here MH seem a bit over the curve, but I'm disregarding Yuusha No Chikara, Overloads, and HMP. So maybe that alone wouldn't be bad, but that's just the start. Once they throw a Prana Converter on, they become Ensign bonuses (because Sergeant would be pathetically inefficient), they get a DC of 7, +80%/-40%. One IS, and they become as dodgy as NTs, with a built in Chogo Nu-Z, and damage almost on par with a Mazin at full Potential. That's pretty damn powerful for 1 IS.
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Post by Tilus on Feb 23, 2005 19:02:30 GMT -5
...You've both got it all wrong! Sure this is a bad suggestion, but for all the wrong reasons!
This wouldn't make a "strong class stronger", it would make a weak class weaker!
This suggestion merely magnifies the three biggest problems facing MHes: 1) They're "above average" in a lot of areas but strong in none, 2) Their abilities take time to rev up, making them highly vulnerable to quick death, and 3) To use their pilot skills with any effectiveness you need to burn IS on class items, making them limited in their variety options.
The ever-so-slight bonuses such a proposal would give to the MH class will be more than offset by the weaknesses brought about by the change.
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Post by Umbaglo on Feb 23, 2005 19:05:08 GMT -5
Tilus is just sore because he can't win.
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Post by Mechalomaniac on Feb 23, 2005 19:08:34 GMT -5
I'm with Yan and Tristan on this one. MH is not weak. They're good at everything in their units as is. Hell with Greater SDL, they've got the same defense as a Mazinger in Potential all the time, with an effective DC of 0 to boot.
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Post by Trigger on Feb 23, 2005 19:13:54 GMT -5
Hell, if it wasn't for the Mech Restirctions on the Heralds, It would be the best class in the SC. and Even with the Limitations, it's still a strong class. I don't see what's to Improve on this class.
I'm with Yan and Tristan as well.
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Post by Rooster on Feb 23, 2005 20:10:45 GMT -5
> Everyone always prattles on, going. "Why are you such a Jerk, Tristan? Why don't you post your ideas in the thread, instead of yelling them?"
Erm, what does this have to do with the rest of your post?
> One is that Prana in LOE raised all the Masouki(shin)'s stats. Your level of prana would increase HP/EN/Damage and so on by a certain percentadge. The second is the fact that the *SOME* LoE units do infact have a spirit dependncy ability. Which is basically raised stats at a higher morale level. The thing here is, all this stuff only works in Masouki(shin) units.
Then shouldn't SDL increase HP/EN/Damage and as a separate part, boost stats in 'kishins after turn X? Here it's just kind of all rolled into one general boost, and doesn't follow what you've outlined as canon.
> Thusly, I don't like the idea because it goes very much against canon for the sake of giving a minor boost to an already pretty strong class. The Prana Converter is about as Out of Canon as we should get, really.
I felt that the gradual fade in of skills gave better depiction of tension, myself. Nowhere have I seen where the masoukishin in question just starts dodging better at X tension, then starts tanking better, etc.
> People love to point out that without SDL, MHs are basically classless with Seishin. Thing is, that's kind of the point.
An excellent point, actually. However, are they as bad as a grunt pilot in units other than Masoukishins in the series?
> Now, I've pointed this out before, but the Prana Converter is debatably the most powerful mid-tier item in the SC. +60% damage dealt, -30% received, and -6 DC. So it's like a better A-Up(C), a better Chogokin, and a better Tesla Drive all rolled into one.
It would be if it was an anyone use item... but it can only be compared to other emulators for the benefits between the baseline abilities in anything and skills in their own units. The closest that compares is actually the Gundam Fighter's Mobile Trace Suit in terms of bonuses, although GFs still have a couple skills usable in any unit which balance out the lesser bonuses from super/hyper mode. GFs also have a hi-tier version of the trace suit which allows their full power in hyper mode. MHs lack this.
> So why should one unit dependent class get a boost, while all the other's don't? Unless you feel like offering Aura Barrier, Super Mode, and Synchonate in every unit, too.
I don't see any reason why we couldn't. Build every cass to work more or on equal terms between series unit, non-series unit with emulator and non-series unit without emulator.
> Once they throw a Prana Converter on, they become Ensign bonuses (because Sergeant would be pathetically inefficient), they get a DC of 7, +80%/-40%. One IS, and they become as dodgy as NTs, with a built in Chogo Nu-Z, and damage almost on par with a Mazin at full Potential. That's pretty damn powerful for 1 IS.
Mazins don't have just potential, they also have ki-ai. And not to mention mazin-power in their own series units, which gives an extra automatic boost as well. Of course, the last is only comparible to LT MHs with full SDL in a series unit, but the calculation looks like this:
Series units: MH: WD+100%, DR -50% MP: Ki-Ai (builds to) +/- 50% to both, already equaling a MH's DR, and half of their WD. This does take longer, however, it never decreases. Potential: Between -45%/+25% and -75%/+100%. This is multiplicative with Ki-Ai, and basically equates to a MP needing 40%-30% levels early in the fight to match an MH, but only needing... 50% or less to be equatable.
Mazins also have far worse dodge and countercut, but with mazin power in their own units, there's only a few attacks that they can't handle with regen. Mainly random status attacks. Additionally, a Mazin's dodge ability already sucks, but if a MH is sniped, they sudden dodge like a Mazin normally does. Additionally, a mazin who's in full swing has a DR of 91.25%, compared to... let's use GSDL and say 75% and doesn't need to dodge nearly as much as a MH. And they still flash for the same cost.
> Tilus is just sore because he can't win.
Poor Tilus.
> I'm with Yan and Tristan on this one. MH is not weak. They're good at everything in their units as is. Hell with Greater SDL, they've got the same defense as a Mazinger in Potential all the time, with an effective DC of 0 to boot.
See above. GSDL is mean, but it only exists on boss units. And a mazinger in their own boss unit probably has nastier overall DR. A mazinger can also get these bonuses, other than mazin power... in ANYTHING. I understand the difference canonically, but it still makes them a juggernaut.
And this is the underlying issue here... canon vs making classes balanced in similar situations.
And if you want a demonstration of this, I'd be willing to give an example of an MH's power level, in or out of a 'kishin.
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Post by Yanbetari on Feb 23, 2005 20:37:14 GMT -5
Except the units with Mazin Power are relatively few, and pretty unimpressive actually. Kaizer (Scrander) only has at most an x2, a (SV) that's only marginally efficient pre-boosts, and a DESTROY L:2, with no DC mod. Unfortunately, the only Hi-Tier SDL units to copare it with are the LoE dressup, which are decidedly non-standard, and even a bit broken as is. And the only GSDL units are bosses.
Also, for consideration is that 75% DR is constant, regardless of HP. A Mazin with full Ki-Ai and Mazin Power only gets effective 65% above 50% HP, and a damage boost of +95%. And I don't care how much HP and DR a Mazin has, it's not tanking a D:L3. A MH on the other hand, could dodge it comparatively easy.
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Post by Radius on Feb 23, 2005 21:03:58 GMT -5
See, what you're trying to do here is take a class that shouldn't be used out of it's series units, and make it usable in nearly all units.
Maybe there's just nothing special about using a Masoukishin Herald outside of their series unit. There are plenty of classes that work just fine outside there series unit, but should they fight an equal rank MH in their respective series units, chances are you'll see the MH wipe the floor with them.
Oh, and let's not forget your very generous SP pool, only eclipsed by Dynamics and Tensais.
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Post by Umbaglo on Feb 23, 2005 21:08:46 GMT -5
That's how much SP MH has right now, Radius.
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Post by Radius on Feb 24, 2005 13:13:36 GMT -5
I know, I was saying that was a plus that his class has that he was failing to mention.
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Post by Rooster on Feb 24, 2005 13:48:11 GMT -5
It's not exactly a plus if I'm comparing them to a dynamic, though.
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Post by Mechalomaniac on Feb 24, 2005 18:20:06 GMT -5
MH's still have better than all but four classes. They also have 4 Skill slots to work with.
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Post by Julius Firefocht on Feb 24, 2005 23:09:14 GMT -5
Do we really want to make one of the most versatile classes in the SC even better? The Masou Herald dodges well, tanks pretty well and even shoots well! True, they are limited in their choice of mecha to use but that is the nature of their class.
I vaguely recall one match I had against a Wing Zero with a Masoukishin Herald and a LSDL. When the Zero System activated along with all of the LSDL's abilities, it was pure hell for me. That goes to show that if the proper mecha was used, the Masoukishin Herald can be very powerful indeed.
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