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Post by MaullarMaullar on Oct 20, 2004 1:59:13 GMT -5
Grendizer is one unit. There's only so much you can specialize a class to one unit before you say "screw it," drop the class altogether and give the abilities to the unit itself because the class is so useless without that unit. As the proposal stands now, Grendizer Dairyoku is a crappy version of Mazinger Dairyoku for the first two levels and is completely outclassed by Getter Dairyoku at 30%.
Furthermore, compare the maximum Dairyoku levels mathematically:
Gren vs. Mazin: 2.1 (Mazin attack mod) x .4 (Gren defense mod) = .84 2.75 (Gren attack mod) x .25 (Mazin defense mod) = .6875
Gren vs. Getter: 4 (Getter attack mod) x .4 (Gren defense mod) = 1.6 2.75 (Gren attack mod) x .5 (Getter defense mod) = 1.375
Grendizer Pilots may have had a mathematically superior Dairyoku before, but that doesn't justify giving them a poor Dairyoku now. As I said, we can't think in terms of backlash.
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Post by WesleyGibson on Oct 20, 2004 7:27:21 GMT -5
Mafty what poor defense should I take note of exactly? They defend 10% poorer at 10% more health with ki ai twice as fast, and both dodge and CC better. *looks at what he said* Oh I see. Yes their defense is obviously the worst
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Post by Umbaglo on Oct 20, 2004 8:48:53 GMT -5
So, wait. Let me get this straight. You want Grens to deal more damage then Getters, and tank better then Mazins? You seem to prove my point exactly, Grens are now where they are susposed to be, jack of all trades, master of none.
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Post by WesleyGibson on Oct 20, 2004 9:33:31 GMT -5
No, and that's nothing like what I said is it? I never said anything about mazinpilot did I? Nope. Why? I think the mazinpilot looks alright. I'm fine with not having a numerical superiority in my pilot class, but I don't want a flagrant deficiency either. What in the hell is the point of taking the middle of the road class if it's completely surpassed in ALL facets by one of the sides (READ: GETTER). Can we just proceed on the assumption that neither maullar nor I are interested in completely sabotaging everyone else in our persuit of the uber class maybe?
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Post by Umbaglo on Oct 20, 2004 9:43:44 GMT -5
Because Gren pilot is no longer the middle of hte road SR. It's the team leader. It's meant to be in team fights now (try taking into effect Ally Synchro in your calculations, and Gren starts dealing much more damage). If you don't want to play Gren the way it's intended, tough for you.
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Post by Trigger on Oct 20, 2004 10:51:25 GMT -5
Sence when do we need team leaders? especailly concidering that most people play 1v1 anyways. ontop of that, if the Grens are gonna be the team leaders, will there be a RR Team Leader then?
I'm fine with Mazins having Uber defence and Getter with mad Attack Power. but anybody can be a leader in any class.
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Post by Umbaglo on Oct 20, 2004 10:53:38 GMT -5
Valk Pilots are the RR leader.
Grens are leader in the games, as well.
On top of it, the SC systems intend for players to be in team matches, not 1v1s.
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Post by CowboyJohnny on Oct 20, 2004 11:23:08 GMT -5
Given the higher triggers for Getter Potential and faster Ki-ai, it's more than fair to say that most of the time Getter Pilots will be defending better than Gren Pilots in the current setup. I don't think this was the intention.
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Post by Imban on Oct 20, 2004 11:30:40 GMT -5
Ick, on a reread, Grendizer Pilots really get boned at high HP levels and are clearly the worst Dynamic there. That needs fixed, if nothing else.
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Post by MaullarMaullar on Oct 20, 2004 12:54:24 GMT -5
Isn't it kind of stupid to have a class that only measures up to the other classes in a team battle? I mean, that's why we're reworking VP, because as it stands the only thing that distinguishes it is Anima Spiritia. We shouldn't be stepping backwards.
Look at the numbers. A Grendizer Pilot will be outdamaged and outtanked by a Mazin Pilot, with the Mazin Pilot doing 84% of the normal damage to the Gren Pilot, and the Gren Pilot only doing 68.75% of the normal damage to the Mazin Pilot--with both at the highest level of Dairyoku.
The situation's even worse when you compare Getter Pilot to Gren Pilot, because not only will Getter Pilot have the numerical advantage both ways, the Getter Pilot also gets to his highest Dairyoku faster.
If Grendizer Pilot is supposed to be the middle-of-the-road SR, shouldn't it not completely suck in both attack and defense against the other SRs?
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Post by Umbaglo on Oct 20, 2004 13:46:24 GMT -5
It's not stupid when that's the way it works. The team support aspects of VP are highly effective, as you should know. It's the 1v1 aspects that fail, and pretty badly at that. The 1v1 aspects of the proposed Gren are still very studly. Sure you're not completly thrashing the other 2 Dynamics anymore, but that's the way it should be. Gren, as proposed, is still a valid 1v1 class. VP is not.
You should remember that the focus is susposed to be team battles. If you're not going to follow that focus, then you suffer. Would you get CoE if you don't want to pilot Evas? If not, why should you expect to get a special bonus to compensate for that? How about if I wanted to be a MH that never piloted a Masoukishin, or used a Prana Converter? If I'm willfully ignoring the strengths and intents of my class, then I should be punished with inferior capabilities. It's not that hard to get into team matches, really. And more people should do them, because they're a lot more fun, and hold more strategy, then simple 1v1s.
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Post by Arad Baranga on Oct 20, 2004 14:44:34 GMT -5
The thing about the way this Ally Synchro works is that you need it just to be on equal footing. It's not an advantage. That's the part that sucks. The usual tradeoff for these specialized classes is that they're better than other classes can be in all units or situations, but can be that in less units or situations. That isn't the case here.
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Post by MaullarMaullar on Oct 20, 2004 16:44:54 GMT -5
Gren doesn't just fail to "completely thrash" the other 2 Dynamics. It gets utterly thrashed by them, both in offense and defense, as the numbers show. I thought balance was supposed to mean "these classes can stand on equal ground," not "Grendizer Pilots are too good so let's make them suck instead." This is like a throwback to when Grendizer Pilots had 2/2 Dairyoku. It eliminates much of the incentive to use Gren Pilot in 1v1 matches.
And you talk about penalizing Gren Pilot users for not using their class "properly." Isn't it penalizing Gren Pilot owners to suddenly change the role of their class? Current Gren Pilot owners stand to get screwed horribly, especially those who have all their subclasses.
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Post by Umbaglo on Oct 20, 2004 17:35:40 GMT -5
You mean people who bought it because it was cheap, had a bajillion SP, and was going to be modded to be better then the other Dynamics?
People who bought it as a subclass don't really have a place to complain, I think, because they can use it in team battles whenever they want, and ever have to see the problem you see.
Change happens, and this is one change that isn't all that hard to get over. The class as a whole is still the same, it just gets slightly weaker base damage output when it's alone. Try thinking back to when VP was modded. The class did a full 180 in use, from a DC packing offensive force to an amazing support class.
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Post by Trigger on Oct 20, 2004 18:03:37 GMT -5
But When the Valks were modded, they were modded for the better. the old Valks just had a +10 DC Mods on there attacks, and 5 DC with Crappy CC period. now Valks Have Evasive Manovers, Can Sing Songs to Support the Others in the Team, while Still Retaining the 5 DC and Crappy CC.
When I First got the Gren, it was for the Fast Dairyoku and Lots of SP. the fact that it was cheap was just a bonus, and Ironicly, I've won All my Fights as a Gren when it was a 2/2 Dairyoku.
When it was Modded to be the Middle-Man of the SR Thrio, it still lacked any special Skills. Mazins had soul of Chogoken and Getters had Open get.
If the Grens would get all these Skills [ that BTW would be unsuable in any 1v1, fight outside of its own MECH (singular). ]it would still be the weakest of the three, and to take away the only thing it had going for it- the high SP - becuase people weren't using it properly or becuase it was cheap?
Then Why not Mod the PTs and MS as Well. they're both just as cheap and they both still kick. Just becuase people buy a class becuase its cheap doesn't mean it has to suck too. Hell I see some classes that are overpriced anyways XD
*EDIT: BTW, the Valks can Still hold there own even in 1v1 Fights.
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