Doll Regulations

[Tavish]

The Mobile Doll System. Nifty idea, but haphazard implementation. I was looking at a unit or three, and I thought "This would be a nice MP unit for MDS..."

Then I looked at the Mobile Doll list, and for a moment, tried to figure out why I would add it to that list. I saw little pattern, rhyme, or reason. So I thought I'd open this thread.

Why? Simply to place a few ideas out for the mobile doll lists, and the system itself.

The Action Figurine(!) Suggestions:
1) Most importantly, there's no rules for "what can be dolled." That is the first eyebrow-raiser. And by that, I mean there's no rules as to what should be on the MD list.
2) How about them thar Support Defends?
3) It's awfully limiting in its summon rules. There's no way I can summon, say, two Private-class MD on turn one, and then a Sergeant-class MD on turn... whatever. Five? What gives?
4) You don't have to declare what MDs you will be using in your deploy. This seems... simply put, tactically unfair. There's nothing else like it in the SC, really.
5) Why not allow unsummoning, but treat unsummoned MDs as destroyed, or something like that?

[Umbaglo]

Point 1 is pretty much units which are obviously Zaku or GM derived, but not anything which was an Ace custom. Or was controlled by remote AI during the shows (like Turn A's Bandit).

Point 4 is untrue. All units with multiple summons which you can choose from (Devil Haro, Devil Gundam, Berga Giros (Black Vanguard), Medius Locus 3rd, etc) do not require you to declare what types you're using.

[Tavish]

This is true, but can't they summon different types over the course of the battle? MDS can only summon 4 units at most, and its only once for each.

[Umbaglo]

That is correct. Your point? This just means that it's not really unfair, as it's much weaker then a normal unit's ability.

[MaullarMaullar]

But at least with inherent summons you have some idea of what you're up against. MDS gives its user the element of surprise. One time in chat, Avitar was mulling over what MDs he would deploy in a fight. That we can have this kind of thing going on, where you can get a second deploy after the fight's started, is crazy. MDs should definitely have to be declared during the deploy. All your other resources for the battle are explicit in deploy, so why not this?

[Umbaglo]

The list of MDable units is well known. There's no real difference between deciding to use 4 Tragos or 4 Devil Balls, while in the match.

[Tavish]

So, essentially, most _grunt_ units from the Gundam universe are _potential_ entries into the MD list.

2, 3, and 5 still haven't been addressed.
What's stopping someone from doing X, Y, and Z? Note that I'd think being able to "fiddle" with your summoning would be only really fair if they had to declare, which brings me to...

Yes, the list of MD units is well known.
So is the list of Low Tier Items, and Mid Tier, and High Tier. So is the Gundam Wing thread, and the numbers of Nergal motherships. So are all my classes, they're in my AM.

Yet, for some reason, I'm forbidden from just deciding I will fill up my IS after deploy, or just say I have two Mid Tier and one Low Tier, and decide what they are later. I have to state my exact mecha in my fight application, and can't change it without mutual agreement. I can't just switch around my classes during battle, either, without unusual circumstances (and always in an SAMW which allows multiple classes anyways, never in a 1v1).

Mobile Dolls do not follow this pattern.

[MaullarMaullar]

There's a lot of versatility within the subset of units eligible for MDing. Besides the dreaded units with x2 attacks, you have units with strong singlehits (>>), and you even have Vayeate, which, with its EN Regen, powerful (V) and MAP, can really throw the balance of a fight.

I really don't like this after-the-fact picking and choosing. Even with units with optional weapons, you have to decide which one you're taking in your deploy. No reason we shouldn't exercise the same caution with a wildcard like the MDS.

[Avitar Diggs]

You know, this game has 1 inherent flaw. We all know it, but choose to ignore it in order to keep the game fun.

All battles are pre determined after deloy and to some extent, in the stipulations. If one wanted to, they could easily come up with an equation of optimum moves and determine the winner of the battle without ever fighting.This gets a bit better as you go along and have more classes and items at your disposal, but even then, you can calcualte for each class a person has. What fun is that? It makes the game little more than my math homework witha story behind it.

Mobile Dolls abd summons of the like add a twist to game play, a bit of randomness. Now, you can go off into battle, and throw in the dolls, and your opponents like "What the hell?" It works even better when both players bring mobile dolls, because it's truely levels the playing ground. I'd hope in the future, more items abd abilities that aren't declared before battle are added to add some spice to the game. And, just because you summon Mobile Dolls doesn't mean you'll win. I've lost many a time with my MDS, mostly due to poor planning or a great MAP or (S) attack. Also, you'll notice the nice, big Anti-MD Virus on the Gundam dressup no one uses. I've designed quite a few anit-summon dressups i'd be happy to share with you.

Now, on the point 1. The Mobile Doll System comes from Gundam Wing. Personally, i've only seen Virgos,Leos, the Mercurius anf Vayate MD'd in the show, but they say it would work on any unit. Realistically, we could have MD'd Getters and the like running about, but for all fairness sake, it seems the administration has decided on Grunt Gundam series units and the Gespents. Why Gespents? I've never played a SRW game, but from what i see, it looks like a Zaku clone.

On point 2, last time I checked MDs cannot Support Defend. Not good news for me, but great for you non-MD users. SDing Mobile Dolls give me basically the ability to summon free shields with me in battle. As much as I'd like this, and it WAS in the show, realistically, you might be weary of this one.

On point 3, I dono. I'd like that, too...


On Point 5, what's the point? If you unsummon only to make all the other units unsummable, why whould you ever unsummon? It's not like there's a a penalty for losing MD's might as well let then eat up resources of your opponet and get destroied then.

Tavish, have you tried using an MD system? it's really fun, and ever a bit addictive. You should fight me with one sometime.

[CowboyJohnny]

MDS is already far and away the best mid-tier item to use in most lower-ranked matches, possibly assuming you don't have a Flash System. So although MD support defense isn't a bad idea in itself, making MDS even stronger is bad. We can look at the deploy issue the same way: letting people choose MDs after they deploy isn't inherently wrong, except that it strengthens MDS, which is a problem. Although as far as I know no one's regularly exploited the choice among MDs yet, there's enough variety to allow a significant advantage.

[MaullarMaullar]

Avitar said:

You know, this game has 1 inherent flaw. We all know it, but choose to ignore it in order to keep the game fun.

All battles are pre determined after deloy and to some extent, in the stipulations. If one wanted to, they could easily come up with an equation of optimum moves and determine the winner of the battle without ever fighting.This gets a bit better as you go along and have more classes and items at your disposal, but even then, you can calcualte for each class a person has. What fun is that? It makes the game little more than my math homework witha story behind it.

Sometimes that's true, but team battles and such get very unpredictable, and even in 1v1's I've considered wrongly and lost because of that.

Avitar said:

Mobile Dolls abd summons of the like add a twist to game play, a bit of randomness. Now, you can go off into battle, and throw in the dolls, and your opponents like "What the hell?"

And I suppose you never thought that turning a 1v1 into a 2-5v1, especially when the other 4 units can be chosen at your discretion, anytime, without any indication in your deploy, might be potentially game-breaking?

Avitar said:

It works even better when both players bring mobile dolls, because it's truely levels the playing ground.

That doesn't justify the MDS being a lame item. It just creates a situation like when the Zero System was buyable, so everybody owned one and pretty much had to bring one to every fight.

Avitar said:

And, just because you summon Mobile Dolls doesn't mean you'll win. I've lost many a time with my MDS, mostly due to poor planning or a great MAP or (S) attack.

And in situations lacking (S) or MAPs? Take a look at some of Solo's fights, or your fight against Kazu in the VS. Sure, in matches between high-powered units the MDS won't bring enough firepower to make a difference, but the thing is that those extra four grunts can make a significant difference in a match with low-powered units. And it still manages to slip in under the ubiquitous No High-Tier item stipulation.

Avitar said:

Also, you'll notice the nice, big Anti-MD Virus on the Gundam dressup no one uses. I've designed quite a few anit-summon dressups i'd be happy to share with you.

Yeah, except that those anti-summon dressups are more than likely bound to the role of anti-summon. MDS is an item and not bound to any unit. Your argument is like saying that Hi-Level Funnel isn't broken at all because of the existence of the Anti-Funnel System. Only less valid, because there are less restrictions on the broken inherent in question. I mean, if you're up against the anti-summon dressup, you have the choice not to bring your MDS. But does the guy with the anti-summon dressup have the choice to throw out his Anti-MD Virus for something more useful on the dressup? No! Thus even with the Anti-MD Virus available, the situation is inherently biased in favor of the MDS user.

Avitar said:

Tavish, have you tried using an MD system? it's really fun, and ever a bit addictive. You should fight me with one sometime.

You should go hang out with Solo.

[Avitar Diggs]

Yeah, the MDS can be pretty damning if called in later in the game. I wouldn't mind so much if it was changed so you must sommon them on turn 1.

With the Anit-MD Virus thing, that's the point, to stop them from using dolls. If you have a suit with MD-Virus, then that makes in very inefficent for the MD user to bring dolls. So, they change to a differnt item, and the 40 point(?) MD-Virus has served it purpose. If it's not worth it to you, don't buy it. Live with the dolls. Not to mention, MD-Virus in an ability and not an item, so there's still tons of room for expanability on the dressup to make it decent.

[MaullarMaullar]

40 points is a lot. Even if you get the extra points, that "expandability" you're babbling about, that's almost one-third of your total points. And it's 40 points that could've gone into making your dressup a lot better. Instead, you have to live with the knowledge that it'll never be as good as another Gundam dressup with the same amount of points. You have to live with a dressup that's pretty much bound to the role of anti-MD. Whereas the MDS can be put on any unit. All you lose is an item slot, and that's worth a lot less than 40 points on a Gundam dressup.

Moreover, your opponent will always know that you'll have an Anti-MD Virus, if he's smart and looks in your AM before taking a fight with your Gundam dressup. The MDS is an item, so you have no way of knowing whether the opponent will bring it or not, as long as you're fighting a match that allows mid-tier items.

Lastly, what's this idiocy about Anti-MD Virus being better as an ability than an item? To return to the Zero System example, do you think the Zero System is better as an ability, locked to its unit, or as an item that you can bring in just about any situation?

Put up the Anti-MD Virus against the MD System, and the MD System still wins. It's more versatile and it's more useful in general.

[Tavish]

Avitar said:

Tavish, have you tried using an MD system? it's really fun, and ever a bit addictive. You should fight me with one sometime.

This isn't a point on whether the MDS is fun.

It's whether it should be what it is now.

[Lyonesse]

*looks at the negative outlook on him*

;_;

I say we add a stipulation to the MDS.

The user must be the first one to deploy in a fight.